Foreign Affairs Committee on Sept. 9th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Brown, you have five minutes.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister Baird, I'll turn back to you if you don't mind. I know in June of this year Iraq was added to our list of development country partners. I know right now there is a $10 million fund that our programming people are trying to decide how to move forward with, particularly to work in communities where there are internally displaced people.

I wonder if you could tell us a little bit first of all about what we're doing diplomatically in Iraq right now. Could you tell us how willing Iraq is to have our engagement on these kinds of projects?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We have stepped up our engagement with Iraq in a big way over the past two years. We have a permanent presence on the ground in Baghdad with co-locating with the British, which has been helpful because we couldn't obviously afford that early on. Our new ambassador, Ambassador Saccomani, has visited the region, Baghdad, Erbil, Basra, and elsewhere on a regular basis. We've really stepped up our engagement in the last year, which is positive.

We've taken an approach not just on the foreign affairs side of the department, as you pointed out the development side being a priority, but also on the trade side. Obviously people being able to work and provide for themselves and their own families is our long-term vision. There are opportunities for Canadian companies to assist the economic growth of Iraq. That is something important. I think we've stepped up the engagement in a big way which we hadn't a number of years ago.

The capacity in some parts of the country.... Until recent months Erbil and the KRG region was a very safe and secure area. I did notice on our visit to Baghdad it was demonstrably different than it was even 18 months before; we were not required to wear flak jackets and helmets outside of the green zone which I did 18 months ago.

We obviously want to push our interests and values. I think it's in our interests to see a secure humanitarian stable Iraq where people aren't slain.

In terms of our values, it comes back to pluralism. This is a great Canadian experience that I think we can help share with the world. Going back many years, this has been a real centrepiece in Canadian foreign policy. The leadership the Prime Minister has given the Aga Khan in terms of the Centre for Pluralism is important. The Aga Khan is probably the most world-eminent leader of pluralism. The fact that he has a special connection to Canada, the fact that he is Islamic himself, I think is not unhelpful.

The work of the office of religious freedom is inherently about promoting pluralism where you have genuine freedom of religion, not just freedom to believe, but freedom to fully practise and live your religion. So many of the other freedoms take care of themselves. That's got to be the long-term vision that we have to work with our allies on in Iraq. It was horrific to hear stories how Christian families were ratted out to this barbaric terrorist organization by their own neighbours and people in their community where they had lived for millennia. It's absolutely horrific.

We talk about religious minorities, Christians, U.S. journalists. There have been hundreds and thousands of Muslims killed in this conflict by this cult. I think in the medium and long terms, pluralism has to be a big part of the solution. The government in Baghdad has been deficient on that. The establishment of a new government last night we hope holds great promise, but our diplomatic resources will obviously be going to engage, encourage and monitor and assess that. Obviously I'll do that. Others will do that. It is tremendously important.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Dr. Bennett, do you see a role for Canada going forward to speak to the situation and help the new Iraqi government with some of our experience and our advice?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

Again, just to reinforce what the minister said, pluralism is at the heart of advancing religious freedom. We advance religious freedom overseas not simply through international covenants that speak to it as a fundamental right, but we advance it based on the Canadian experience of pluralism. Because we enjoy religious freedom here in Canada and we cherish it, it's incumbent upon us to speak to those countries where there is such a crying need for reinforcement and defence of that principle.

In all the countries we've been focusing on over the last year and a half, part of our outreach is regular engagement with government officials, different ministries of religious affairs, interior ministries, those that have a responsibility for religious matters in a given country. I certainly want to hope that not only through our programming but through our advocacy efforts we can continue to engage in Iraq, and not just Iraq, but also in other parts of the region because it's a real puzzle of different countries coming together and there are broader challenges. The situation in Iraq is most acute, but I think we need to, as our office does...we're not engaged in short-term humanitarian activities, but rather more medium and longer term activities. I think we need to continue to reach out to governments and bring that Canadian model to bear when we're engaging on religious freedom.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

That completes all the rounds that we have, but I know there are still some additional questions. We'll go about four more questioners back and forth. I'm going to start with Mr. Harris and then I'm going to move to Mr. Bezan. We'll then go to Mr. Garneau and then we'll finish it up with one of the Conservatives.

We'll turn it over to Mr. Harris for five minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

So far, gentlemen, what I see is.... I want to focus on the military deployment. I know the others have covered the humanitarian side. So far, what I got from today is that you won't tell us when the troops will actually be there and you won't tell us how many specifically. You keep it a vague several dozen. You are very vague on the continuation after 30 days. I think the general consensus seems to be that not a lot can be accomplished within 30 days. You will not commit to a parliamentary debate or a vote.

The news media is already reporting that President Obama will make a speech to the American nation tomorrow, I believe it is, where we he will be talking about a three-year program. I guess you have to understand why Canadians are a little concerned about what road we're going down here and where this is leading us without any significant commitment from this government as to where we could be taken.

You know and I know that when the Prime Minister was seeking to be the Prime Minister, he committed to a position that Parliament should be responsible for the commitment of Canadian Forces to foreign operations. What I want to know is how the approach that you're taking here squares with the statements that were made by the Prime Minister when he was seeking to be Prime Minister and with previous agreements between our previous leader, Jack Layton, and him to change the Standing Orders of the House of Commons to ensure that there was a vote by Parliament on these matters before they took place. How does that work?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

First of all, I thought I was very specific in terms of exactly who would be going over. These are our special operations forces.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Not who, but how many.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I indicated that.

Again, you asked where would they be located and I indicated to you that they would be in northern Iraq. As I've indicated on a couple of occasions, they are there for technical assistance and advice.

Again, I said there would be a few dozen Canadian Armed Forces that will be on the ground. We won't give you the flight numbers or the times or exactly when and where they're going for security reasons. That being said though, as I indicated, they are going to be deployed very quickly. We believe there is an urgency to what's taking place and I think that's obvious to everyone who has viewed this area. Again, that's exactly what we'll do.

With respect to debates in the House of Commons, part of what we're doing in reaching out, calling this meeting for example, was to bring all members together so that they would have an opportunity to discuss either the deployment of the special operations forces or indeed any of the other issues as they relate to this part of the world.

That being said, we certainly welcome debate. One of the great things in our parliamentary system as you know, Mr. Harris, is that on a regular basis opposition parties can debate and call for a vote on any subject that they want. Certainly if you and your party want to have additional speeches and debates on this, you are certainly welcome to do that. I believe the Liberals are moving forward with a motion in that regard. Again, I think we are moving forward and I think this is the right thing to do.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I did want to discuss this too, because I think the Prime Minister has always been clear. In the past when we had our mission in Libya, when we had extensions on the combat mission in Afghanistan, there was parliamentary debate and there were votes. This is not a combat mission. When we provided support in Mali to the French government, and now we are providing some training assistance, I think it was quite a different case. I think we've tried to demonstrate some pretty good will. We had both opposition parties go to Iraq to be able to assess for themselves the situation. Obviously reasonable people can come to prioritize different aspects of how Canada can be involved. We had this committee called a week before Parliament returns, pulling everyone back from their constituency responsibilities. That was the government's suggestion. We weren't carried kicking and screaming here. Parliament will resume Monday and if you want to have a take-note debate next week, we'd be very keen to do that.

The opposition every year gets quite a number of opposition days. If you'd like to have a specific debate and a vote, we're all game. We're committed to continue to work off-line as well, providing briefings and listening. Your party has come forward with a number of very good ideas. I'm in agreement with all four of them in terms of what else we can do there. We want to be very constructive in our engagement with the opposition parties, with the government members, and with Parliament.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Mr. Harris and Minister Baird.

We're going to move over to you, Mr. Bezan, for five minutes, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think all of us understand that if we want to protect the ethnic and religious minorities in Iraq, and if we want to be able to deliver humanitarian assistance where it's needed, we have to improve the security situation. That's why it is so important that Canada play a role in improving the security situation in Iraq and defeating the ISIL terrorists. I think we're all very proud of our Canadian Armed Forces and the brave men and women who serve us in uniform and who are always willing to step in and take on these leadership roles.

Minister Nicholson, you've mentioned that there are already four members of the Canadian Armed Forces on an advance team over there, as well as 75 people who have been involved in both the CC-130J and the CC-177 aircraft delivering aid into Iraq. Would you be able to elaborate on what those four individuals are doing and what the ongoing mission is in delivering assistance in the area?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, I think you make a very good point. These cannot just be military operations. They have to be a complete effort. It's not enough for a country to say that there should be no military involvement but we want to be involved heavily with aid and distributing it. This is not a place where that is obviously possible.

What we have done, as I indicated to you in my opening remarks, is that we have been of assistance to others in transporting equipment to Iraq. We have done that with allies of ours. Again, this is with full cooperation of our major allies. I've indicated that we've moved approximately 500,000 pounds of equipment into Iraq. It is not Canadian equipment or Canadian supplies; these were on behalf of, in one case, Albania.

Again, this is what we are doing, because one of the things I've said is that these things have to be a coordinated effort. It's not just Canada alone; it's not the United States or Great Britain alone. It's a cooperative effort on everyone's behalf to make sure that we accomplish what we want to accomplish, which is to put an end to this terrorist group and its activities in Iraq.

It's the kind of effort you have seen in the past from Canada. We continually reach out. Again, we don't do it all by ourselves. I think you made a very good point by raising that. We have already used our equipment and the members of our armed forces to help move equipment and supplies into Iraq at this time. The lead group we have there is part of the announcement that the Prime Minister has made in this area, and that will continue, but as I've made very clear, we will watch it very, very carefully.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We welcome the American leadership initially on the humanitarian side with the airdrops to assist the Yazidis on the mountaintop, and we're prepared to be supportive. Before we could even provide assistance in that regard, the job was done. It happened much quicker than anyone thought.

We welcome the American leadership to provide support to the KRG and folks in Iraq so they can win this battle themselves and protect these minorities, to stop this humanitarian crisis from growing. We welcome the American leadership to try to push this back so we could stop some of these barbaric things that are happening in Mosul, for example.

Obviously, President Obama has requested Canada's support. He and Prime Minister Harper work well together, and Canada is a reliable ally of the United States in pushing our values and our interests.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Thank you.

General Lawson, we talk about how we're going to be deploying members from the special operations forces. Can you describe for the committee exactly who special operations forces are and what their mandate is? Also, what training would they be doing right now in getting ready for deployment?

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

The special operations forces are a step up, slightly higher-trained members of the army. Some are from the other environments, but they're largely from the army. They are extremely fit and are at higher readiness levels and with capabilities that all western nations take to a slightly higher level in defence of very quick-breaking threats, such as the one they are going to advise and assist on facing as we go ahead. They're extremely well trained. They also come back from having been well involved in the mission in Afghanistan, which was, at the end, a train-and-advise mission as well.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're going to move over to Mr. Garneau, for five minutes, please.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much.

I think most Canadians who are following the committee hearings this morning are trying to get that sense of what it is that our Canadian troops are going to do over there. I'm going to have a stab at it.

Please tell me if I'm out in left field, but I'm imagining that group of Canadian special ops soldiers, whether it's 35 or 65, providing that advice in some sort of command centre or operations centre behind the lines where they are working with the Kurdish peshmerga, possibly the Americans, and possibly some other allies in this coalition. Their job is to help to provide advice, whether it is for an offensive operation that is going to be carried out by the Iraqis or the Kurds, or even for a defensive operation if ISIS decides it's going to try to create an onslaught somewhere along the line. Is that roughly what the picture is?

Also, very quickly, it is President Obama who proposed to Canada or asked Canada to play a role. He spoke to the Prime Minister. Was that role proposed? Or was it “Canada, you decide what you're going to do”, and this is what we decided we were going to do?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think that is a pretty good description of what our armed forces will be doing in terms of giving advice. I think that's well done.

With respect to President Obama and the conversation, I'll turn it over to my colleague, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, as to what exactly it was.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Obviously, they wanted political support and tangible assistance to combat this menace, this barbaric threat. On the issue with respect to training and advice and what specifics, humanitarian as well, Canada can't, on global affairs, just sit back with a chequebook and send money. They need Canada's tangible help.

They're not asking for and we are not engaging in a combat mission, but I think the expertise, skill, and leadership that the Canadian Forces have—you as a former member would know that well—can make a positive contribution to halting the advance of this humanitarian catastrophe and hopefully to ending the barbarism we're seeing from this terrorist group. I don't think this will be easy, but I think we need to help the Kurds and help the Iraqis help themselves, and that's exactly what we're proposing to do.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's never questioned on these that Canada goes in, acts on its own, and figures out on its own what it can do or should be doing. We always work in cooperation with our allies, but again, we're very clear that it's a Canadian mission under Canadian control.

We will make the decisions, but it's very clear from the outset that we are prepared to cooperate in this case with the United States and with our other allies in what's taking place on the ground.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

I have a question for Minister Baird because it's on foreign affairs. At the moment, of course, we have one office that's in the British embassy in Baghdad, and the ambassador who is accredited to Iraq is based in Jordan.

Given the fact that we have more exposure now in Iraq with all of the things you've described, including this new involvement, is there any thought, because of the need to liaise with the government, particularly on the issue of inclusivity, to have a bigger presence in Baghdad, or is the plan still to be doing it from Jordan?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That's a good question. This ambassador has probably increased his engagement tenfold over the previous one by having a chargé in Baghdad co-located with the British. Obviously that has stepped up our engagement. I certainly saw.... I think we could see the need that there would be a value, for example, in expanding that, so it's certainly something that I'm prepared to consider.