Government Operations Committee on Dec. 1st, 2009

[Shahid Minto]

I really think that “better notes” is trivializing the issue, with due respect, sir.

With due respect, sir, good records help the government defend a contract against challenges. Many cases have gone to CITT, and review backs this. There wasn't an audit trail. There wasn't a trail of how you got to this decision. You could not demonstrate fairness in front of a court without a good file. We're not looking at petty little documents. We are not looking at tons of documents. We're looking at essential documents.

Poor documentation raises questions about the integrity of the process and raises questions about patronage, and many times totally unnecessary questions about patronage.

This is taxpayers' money. What people do in their own businesses is their business, and that sort of thing, but this is taxpayers' money.

Remember: public servants move. They go. They retire. They go to another job. They do something else. The file remains. The next person coming in may not have a clue about what happened, so we have to demonstrate that we have used taxpayers' money wisely and fairly.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I appreciate that. It sounds like an issue that we at this committee maybe should consider.

Is it department by department where this needs to be enforced, or is there an overall policy that departments have to adhere to and that they're not adhering to? What is exactly the case here? I guess it depends on what type of documentation you're looking for.

[Shahid Minto]

Madam Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I'm sorry, but your time is up. You were asking so many questions and I had forgotten how wonderful it was to ask questions. Sorry.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Go ahead.

[Shahid Minto]

Madam Chair, the documentation we're talking about relates to the procurement process.

Now, there are more than enough rules on the books that require procurement processes. Please, nobody come out with any more rules; there are lots and lots of rules. Plus, all the trade agreements, the rulings, and the courts have all made it very clear.

We tried to do two things with our annual report this year.

First, we put out some good practices. Some departments have some really good practices relating to procurement and we put them out so that others who may not have those practices can benefit from them.

Second, we put out some recommendations, but the recommendations we are making are not just to the departments we looked at. We're hoping that the recommendations we make will be used by everybody else, by those we didn't even look at, who will say, “Hey, does this make sense to me or not?”

The accountability for good documentation, just like accountability for running a department, rests with the deputy minister. We've spoken to most of the people around the block and I think they accept what we are saying.

Really, the question you have to come back to is this: are there enough resources to do the job and what is the most important part of the job they want to get done?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Madam Hall Findlay, you're going to be magnanimous and give your time to me. Is that what you're saying?

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Well, I did notice that you seemed to have some curiosity, so I would be more than happy to donate my time to the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

I'm just following through on what Mr. Holder asked you about alternative dispute resolution. You said that in the six months you've done one investigation and four ADRs. How many issues have you resolved informally?

[Shahid Minto]

I would have to go back and say probably more than 150.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I think the question around the table, in listening to everybody, is that the sole-sourcing under $25,000 is a critical issue. You've stated that a person has to write down the reason for sole-sourcing, but who goes in and audits that reason? Who goes and spot-checks the reason?

I have been in the procurement business in government and I know it's the comfort zone of utilizing that person, so how do we go about ensuring fairness? Because the small and medium-sized enterprises that are creators of jobs need that. How do you justify that $25,000?

You just told Mr. Warkentin that you wanted no more rules and regulations. How do we go about making it more efficient?

[Shahid Minto]

The bottom line is really that these are the issues that are not resolved through additional regulation. These are issues that are resolved when you have a culture that says we have to be accountable for our actions and ethical considerations are just as important as legal considerations in procurement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

But in your report you stated that there are times when the departments themselves lack the competencies. So they go to PWGSC and say, “Do 20% of the contracts valued up to $14 billion”. So there is that lack of competency, but they may be risk-averse in the department. They are probably very risk-averse, and as Mr. Martin put it, it's who you know.

So if I've dealt with you as a contractor and I'm comfortable that you will not let me down and you will deliver it, then I will not choose somebody else. How do you get that mindset changed, the mindset of a bureaucracy that has been doing it for 35 years without anybody...? The Auditor General has been complaining about this as well. How do we do that?

[Shahid Minto]

I started by saying, Madam Chair, that almost every audit report has drawn attention to this stuff. From an audit perspective, I think it is largely incumbent on internal audits and on the Office of the Auditor General doing audits. I don't do audits. I do reviews--

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

So the internal audits...?

[Shahid Minto]

But we do take note of your issue here. We are going to see what we can do with our plans for future years to see how we could contribute.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Should the Comptroller General be the person who would be reviewing departments, not the Auditor General? Because she does a lot of other work. The Comptroller General has been there in part to ensure that internal regulations are complied with. We don't need more regulations. Can we call on the Comptroller General, who is the chief internal auditor, to have a look at this?

[Shahid Minto]

My understanding is that all internal audits are supposed to be done based on a risk-based plan. What are the risks to the organization? If they identify procurement under $25,000 as a high-risk area, they should be doing internal audits in that area.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

How risk-averse are the departments and the procurement officers in the departments?

[Shahid Minto]

I'm trying very hard not to give government-wide opinions. We've only been in business six months. I really don't want to go back to my previous experience and start giving opinions.

In the departments we visited this year, if you look at each one of our reports, there is some issue of being risk-averse. Nobody wants to do briefings or they'll be sued. Well, sorry, but your discomfort can't override the supplier's right to know. I think it's this balance that we have to find somewhere.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You've been here six months. Are there any other governments that have procurement ombudsmen? Is there a process by which a peer review could be done in the long term?

[Shahid Minto]

Madam Chair, that's one of the first questions we asked. I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that has a procurement ombudsman within the private sector or in government--not in the provinces, not in Australia.

Everybody has ombudsmen. For example, in Ontario there is one ombudsman who looks after everything.

But this is a very specialized thing. It came out of a specialized situation.

What we have done is set up a program evaluation framework. That was one of the first things we did. We said that at the end of three years we will do a program evaluation of what we do. If we find that we are not adding value, then we should take our money and put it elsewhere in the procurement process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

That's fair enough. Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Gourde for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you very much Madam Chair. I would like to congratulate Mr. Minto and all of his team. I think that your office was set up in December 2006 and we are now in December 2009. So the office has been in existence for some three years now.

Do you have enough resources to do all of the work expected of you or would you like to have additional resources?