Evidence of meeting #8 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kelly Gillis  Assistant Secretary, Corporate Services Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Alister Smith  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

I see a quorum, colleagues. We're starting a little later than normal.

We are continuing today, under Standing Order 108, with our review of the economic stimulus package. We're delighted to have with us the Honourable John Baird, Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

There's a great deal of interest about the stimulus package in Parliament and across Canada. I want to note, as we get into this, that I've been working with the staff to generate a picture of the procedure that is and isn't there surrounding the stimulus package. There has been a modification to the normal process of authorization of government spending to expedite the stimulus package. As a result, there may be some procedural adjustments that this committee should be undertaking to respond to that.

We're very much looking forward to the minister's testimony today and the information we will be receiving next week. The minister is here for only the first hour, so I will have to be very strict about my own speaking and the time of members.

Welcome, Mr. Baird. We're very interested in hearing your comments on the stimulus package.

11:05 a.m.

Ottawa West—Nepean Ontario

Conservative

John Baird ConservativeMinister of Transport

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm very pleased to be here. I appeared before this committee a number of times when I was President of the Treasury Board and I'm glad to be back.

Obviously, we're going through some very uncertain economic times, not just in Canada but throughout the industrialized world. We believe the government can play an important role in responding to these economic challenges. They didn't originate in Canada; they originated in the United States and then have spread around the world. But we are committed to doing our part to help stimulate economic growth and to getting Canadians working again.

Infrastructure is one part of that program. We have a number of important initiatives designed to help give a much-needed shot in the arm to the Canadian economy. They range from the Building Canada plan—a lot of those funds go directly to municipalities through the gas tax—to the GST rebate. Then there's what I call Building Canada proper, in which we work with provinces and territories constructively on identifying and getting projects moving forward with various proponents. In many cases they are municipalities.

There is a huge need for infrastructure renewal in this country. There is a huge infrastructure deficit, and this is a great opportunity to ensure not just that we put Canadians to work in the short term, but that we come forward with measures to allow us to come out of this economic difficulty sooner than the United States and countries around the world do, and that we come out stronger and better able to respond to some of the challenges. The GDP decline was much less pronounced in Canada, but nonetheless it's a major concern. That's why we're moving aggressively to identify projects, to get agreement, and then to move forward as expeditiously as possible.

In most of the infrastructure projects we'll engage in, the Government of Canada doesn't hold the shovel. Rather, it's held by provinces, by municipalities, or other authorities. Whether it's a port, an airport, a convention centre, or the crown—you name it—we're doing the best we can to respond to the need to cut red tape and to speed up the process that will give a federal green light.

We met with the premiers and first ministers. That went tremendously well. We came forward with a five-point action plan that received unanimous support—which is quite remarkable—from Liberal, NDP, and Conservative premiers from coast to coast to coast. I think that speaks to the quality of the work that's been done both by parliamentary committees and by the public service, whether it's on the Navigable Waters Protection Act, or on having one environmental assessment process, or on cutting red tape, and not just at the public service level but at the political level. Too often decisions take an inordinate amount of time. The good news is, generally speaking, that we are working tremendously well with our provincial partners. Where there had been acrimony, there is, generally speaking, a much better level of engagement and agreement. I think that is what Canadians expect in these difficult times.

We have come forward with a significant number of infrastructure projects and plans. They also include, though, things outside of the traditional involvement, whether projects for colleges and universities, which would be managed by the Minister of Industry and the Minister of State at Industry Canada, or for support for VIA Rail or support for a good number of other initiatives, whether environmental, recreational, or a more traditional involvement in infrastructure.

Since January—just in the last month and a half—we have given the green light to 480 community projects worth more than $1.5 billion, primarily in Ontario, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia. Whether it's for the Evergreen Line that the Premier of British Columbia and the Prime Minister announced, or whether it's for cleaning up the Saint John harbour in New Brunswick or for new water treatment facilities in Nunavut, we're doing our best to give the green light as quickly as possible. The funding will flow within 30 days of our receiving an invoice. We've said to all of our partners that we will be as flexible as possible and will pay our bills within 30 days so that these projects can move forward as expeditiously as possible.

In Ontario we announced more than 289 projects last month totalling $1 billion; that's good news. They're in communities of under 100,000 right across the province. There is a good tripartite agreement with the municipalities, the province, and the federal government.

In British Columbia we announced 41 projects for about $175 million. In Saskatchewan, $90 million was announced to work on 46 different projects.

This is just a start. We are undertaking extensive consultation and decisions with our provincial and municipal partners around the country.

I'm very pleased now to take your good counsel and questions, Mr. Chair.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I'll go to Mr. McTeague for eight minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here today.

Minister, I trust you've read the motion by our colleague, the finance critic and member for Markham—Unionville, that he plans to introduce today. The motion will require that the President of the Treasury Board inform the House every time your government uses any of the $3 billion fund and that these reports also be accessible to Canadians to see.

Minister, do you support this compromise?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I haven't seen the motion as yet.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

You have not seen the motion tabled by my colleague in the House of Commons?

Let me ask you a question, then. You've talked about a number of announcements here. Specifically on the question of accountability, does your department have, in any way, shape, or form, a list of projects that it plans to access through this $3 billion fund? If so, what are they?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I think there will be projects that are outlined in our economic action plan, where we've clearly laid out a group of initiatives. I don't have a particular list to table today.

What I don't want to do.... I don't mean to be confrontational, but when you're working in partnership with the province and the municipality, it's distinctly unhelpful if one tries to jump the gun and proceed ahead of them, when you have a partnership. We'll announce them in cooperation with the provinces.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Minister, I appreciate the fact that you are suggesting there are other places you'd like to look at spending this money, but 26 days from now you will have before you a government that will begin a $33 million expenditure on a daily basis, and you can't provide this committee, nor apparently can any of your ministers, any list of priorities.

May I ask you how, in any way, shape, or form, you intend to spend $3 billion? What is its purpose, and how can you assure Canadians that you will meet the test of your own party and your own statements in the House of Commons and prove that you're serious about transparency and accountability?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

You're an Ontario member of Parliament, as I am. If I were to unilaterally jump the gun and proceed to announce projects, I don't think either my premier or the minister of infrastructure in Ontario would be terribly pleased with that.

We will be spending the $3 billion with respect to my department on the economic stimulus fund, and we will spend it on the environmental fund, and we will spend it on the RINC program. These are three specific parts of our economic action plan, and this will be the focus of our efforts. We also identified in the economic action plan accelerating various components of Building Canada, and it would include those as well.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Minister, I'm wondering whether any of what you've just announced has anything to do with the $3 billion.

We're left in a position in which we have absolutely no idea how you or your government intends to spend the money. I'm hoping it's not a question of flying over in a helicopter and throwing money out at wherever it should happen to land. You must know by now, Minister, where that money is to be spent and how critical it is for the public to have faith and trust in our institutions, and for you as minister today to tell us specifically how the money is going to be spent, especially for the intended purposes that we all agree with to stimulate the economy.

Minister, where is that money going?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I identified three specific programs as part of Canada's economic action plan, and that's exactly where it will go in my department.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Minister, when you were responsible for Treasury Board you came with a strong message of transparency and accountability. I'm wondering how you can claim that a $3 billion expenditure....

The three points you've just made here have nothing to do with this $3 billion, if I'm to understand this as the greater part of the budget. I'm wondering how you can make the claim of transparency when in fact you have not given to Canadians or parliamentarians anything more than a request for a blank cheque. How do you expect us to have confidence in what you're doing if we have absolutely no idea how that money is to be allocated?

Your department tends to have the first crack at these things, particularly given that it had $3 billion left over from the previous budget that it didn't use.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I'll be very clear and very specific. We identified three initiatives with respect to infrastructure as part of our economic action plan: the economic stimulus fund, which will work with provinces and generally municipalities; the $1 billion environmental fund, for green initiatives; and the RINC program, to do with recreational activities. Those are three specific programs outlined in our economic action plan that those funds could support.

Other cabinet colleagues, such as the Minister of Industry with respect to post-secondary education, or the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development with respect to social housing.... They will all be specifically the initiatives contained in the economic action plan. We do not have authority internally within government to simply write people a cheque, unless there's an established program that has been outlined in the budget and approved by Treasury Board.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Minister, what you're suggesting here is a brand-new, entirely different program. You're asking Parliament to now sign a blank cheque for something when we have no idea where it is going to be spent. We need specifics. We can't operate as a committee, and our Parliament cannot function, if we have people simply saying, “We need the money and we'll tell you about it a little later”.

I appreciate the fact that the Auditor General will have an opportunity to look at this, or that it has been passed by the Auditor General, but you know full well that for eighteen months she won't have an opportunity to pass judgment on what you're about to spend.

Let me ask you once again—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

It's absolutely no different, though, from the current Building Canada process. Parliament authorizes funding for Building Canada and that money is then allocated afterwards. You have exactly the same amount of information, I would suggest, that you had last year, the year before, or during the many years that you were in government.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Minister, in our time in government, money was actually spent for programs that we put forward. You allowed $3 billion to lapse in the last government. If you look very clearly—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Let me—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Let me finish. Last year you lapsed $2 billion. That money is now gone. This year you still have $3 billion in approved funding that you have still not spent. This money can already be used to stimulate the economy and create jobs. What possible reason do you or your government now have for an additional $3 billion blank cheque? Why don't you use the money that you already currently have?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I'm very pleased to respond. The money is not gone. Capital spending can be rolled over, so it does not disappear. I think our government has been more successful than the previous government.

For example, the MRIF program was announced with $1 billion in funding on August 20, 2003. It took almost three years for all the agreements with the provinces and territories to be signed. In fact, in the case of British Columbia it was in 2006. In 2005-06, two years after the program was announced, only approximately $11.5 million had been spent, against a budget of $134 million: 91% of the program's budget for the first two years had lapsed and was rolled over.

I am not satisfied with the speed with which decisions and approvals are given for infrastructure. I was sent to this department with a mandate to make things happen. We are working constructively with provinces and municipalities to identify projects to give the federal green light to, letting them go forward as quickly as possible.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

If this money that you've just announced is for Budget 2009, why do the main estimates say that Treasury Board vote 35 exists “to supplement other appropriations and to provide any appropriate Ministers with appropriations for initiatives announced in the Budget of January 27, 2009”.

The Treasury Board briefing that we had the other day, which I appreciate some of you may have been a part of, confirmed that this money could be used on anything, by any department. How, then, can you claim this is anything but a blank cheque?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I'm telling you very specifically that it would go for initiatives under our economic action plan—the three specific examples that I cited within my own department—which would be allowed.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Minister, I fail to understand that you are being specific when you have provided no details. Either you have a specific outline plan for that $3 billion or you don't. Don't put words in the context of saying that you have specifics when you have nothing. Either you have something and you're going to tell the committee now, or the Auditor General's going to tell us in eighteen months, or we're going to lose what's important—the trust of Canadians—in how we spend money.

Minister, you campaigned on accountability and transparency, you and your party. You won on those slogans. I want that transparency, I want that accountability, and I want it here, before this committee.

When are you prepared to tell us the specifics of that $3 billion for the stimulus program?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I've outlined the three specific examples within my department where these funds could be used.

One thing I can guarantee you is that those moneys will not end up in the bank account of a political party.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

I want guarantees; I want truth, Minister. I want to see where this money is being spent. Let's not talk about the past or the future. This is your responsibility. When are you going to live up to it, Minister?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

That's time.

I have to go to the next member.

Monsieur Laframboise, voux aurez huit minutes.