Government Operations Committee on Feb. 8th, 2012

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

We will call to order the 25th meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations.

Today we will be reviewing and assessing the nomination of Anne-Marie Robinson for the position of president of the Public Service Commission of Canada, which was referred to the committee on February 3, 2012.

Mr. Wallace.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

As you know, Mr. Chair, there is a potential for votes this afternoon. We would like to deal with our commissioner candidate today, which would be great. So we are willing to give up our first time slot to the Liberals to make sure they have an opportunity to speak and ask questions; then we'll go back to our regular round—so NDP, Liberal, NDP, then back to us, and we'll see what time we have after that.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Mr. Wallace, for the spirit of cooperation in light of the truncated timeframe we have. We want to give ample time to Ms. Robinson to introduce herself to the committee, and that would leave us with one round for the Liberals, one round for the Conservatives, and two rounds for the NDP.

If the bells should begin to ring, we really are duty-bound to quickly put the matter to a vote and conclude the meeting at that time.

Are we in agreement?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

If they are 30-minute bells, won't the bells start in 15 minutes?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

They are 30-minute bells. We're reluctant to set the precedent of going beyond the bells, although with unanimous consent of the committee, we can do it if we want.

Seeing as we're dealing with not a very controversial matter, it may be the will of the committee to go beyond the bells for a few minutes while we deal with the matter, but we would like to conclude the matter in this one committee meeting.

Having said that, we don't want to waste any more time. We will welcome Ms. Anne-Marie Robinson.

The floor is yours, and welcome.

[Anne-Marie Robinson, Acting President, Public Service Commission of Canada]

Mr. Chair, honourable members, thank you for your invitation.

I am pleased to be able to discuss my nomination as president of the Public Service Commission of Canada—a unique institution with a remarkable history.

More than 100 years ago, Parliament passed legislation creating the first permanent commission responsible for safeguarding merit and non-partisanship in the federal public service. Under the Public Service Employment Act, my nomination as president requires the approval of both the House of Commons and the Senate. I value this meeting as an important part of the process. I also went through an exhaustive selection process, which I would be pleased to discuss today with the members.

I'm honoured to be recommended for this position, and if I am confirmed, I look forward to bringing to my work a deep respect for Parliament, a good understanding of the Public Service Commission, and a good understanding of human resource management.

I also bring my recent experience as a senior executive in a large operational department and a profound sense of pride in the work I do on behalf of Canadians as a public servant. I also am committed to excellence and looking for innovative ways to continually improve how the commission fulfils its mandate, and I'm both humbled and happy to have the opportunity to return to the commission.

My first job at the commission was director general, policy, at a time when we were moving forward with policy initiatives to modernize human resource management in the public service. I'm proud to have supported Parliament's work on the legislative reforms that eventually became the current Public Service Employment Act in 2003. Those changes had significant impacts on the Public Service Commission.

When I later became vice-president of the corporate management branch, I was pleased to help develop the stronger oversight role in a fully delegated staffing system, a new political activities regime, and a new approach for the delivery of its staffing and assessment services.

The commission put in place corporate systems and structures to support this transformation—for instance, in the areas of communications, governance, and protocols for reporting to Parliament. I worked closely with Mrs. Barrados in building these systems, and I'm happy to see they are still in place.

I have spent the last three years at Health Canada as assistant deputy minister of first nations and Inuit health, and more recently as associate deputy minister. There I was responsible for overseeing regional operations and played a key role in managing its investment planning and performance management.

Throughout my career I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to have both worked on the policy side and managed large programs and dealt with complex issues. I've seen firsthand the role that recruiting and staffing play in the delivery of health care to first nations and Inuit and other vital services for Canadians.

As well, I've learned the importance of working with stakeholders and building relationships based on mutual trust and respect.

I would now like to speak about the mandate and activities of the Public Service Commission.

The Public Service Employment Act sets out a staffing system based on values where deputy heads have greater responsibilities. The commission fulfils its mandate by delegating staffing to deputy heads, providing clear policy direction to support delegation, conducting effective oversight, and delivering innovative services.

It protects the values of fairness, access, representativeness and transparency. Those are fundamental values, in my opinion. The commission must identify and eliminate barriers in recruitment and staffing with the continued objective of promoting a public service that is more representative of Canadian society. It also contributes to maintaining a bilingual public service that respects Canada's two official languages. I have the privilege of working in an organization where bilingualism is well-established. I strongly encourage everyone to interact with me in the language of their choice.

I am very aware of the commission's responsibility to report to Parliament on its activities and on the health of the staffing system. Ms. Barrados made an important contribution towards establishing productive relations with Parliament. I hope to have the opportunity to work together with Parliament to review budget documents, annual reports and any other issue of interest. I also look forward to participating in the discussions on the Public Service Modernization Act report recently submitted by the President of the Treasury Board.

I would now like to discuss the priorities I foresee for the commission. In a delegated system, the commission needs effective oversight to ensure that values are respected. That requires sound analysis of objective data, studies, audits and investigations. The commission will be called upon to deliver its mandate while looking for ways to better utilize its centralized data. In the coming months, the commission will also be called upon to provide ongoing support to organizations as they undertake the implementation of their deficit reduction plans.

I realize that this period will be difficult for both organizations and employees. If I am confirmed as president, I plan to provide deputy heads and employees with a priority administration system that functions soundly and to support selection processes that are transparent and fair. I am also committed to working closely with our human resources partners. I intend to collaborate with the commissioners, once they are nominated, in order to pursue the work already undertaken by Ms. Barrados.

The role of the commission in regard to staffing values will be critical. Employment equity and official languages are also important issues. Those issues will need to be kept in balance while the deficit reduction plan is being implemented. At the same time, the public service will need to continue conducting targeted recruitment to ensure that the public service of the future has a skilled workforce that can deliver results for Canadians.

Mr. Chair, in conclusion, the Public Service Commission has played a vital role in creating a public service that is a model for many countries. If confirmed as president of the Public Service Commission, I look forward to working with this committee, your fellow parliamentarians, and also PSC commissioners. I would as well say that I deeply value the dedication and professionalism of the employees who work at the commission. I look forward to working with them in carrying out this mandate.

I am also committed to fostering strong relationships with all stakeholders, departments, and with bargaining agents as well, so that Canadians will continue to benefit from a public service that is both professional and non-partisan.

Thank you very much. I would be very pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Madam Robinson, for your introductory remarks.

We've just learned that we're good until 4:08. I believe the order of questioning should be just about perfect.

Without any delay, we'll introduce Alexandre Boulerice for the first five minutes of questioning.

Alexandre, the floor is yours.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Ms. Robinson. Thank you for being here today. I want to commend and thank you for making your presentation in both official languages. We, the NDP, feel that's very important.

That being said, since May 2 of last year, when the Conservative Party won the majority, there has been a series of partisan appointments, which the opposition finds somewhat mind-boggling. I know this does not fall within your mandate, but as you know, former MPs and election candidates have been appointed to the Senate and UNESCO. The former Winnipeg North candidate is working for Diane Finley. The former Beauport—Limoilou candidate is working for Ms. Aglukkaq. The former Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine candidate is working for James Moore. Saulie Zajdel, the former Mount Royal candidate, was hired by the government. The Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher candidate was appointed to the National Parole Board. The Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup candidate was appointed to the Quebec Port Authority. The Berthier—Maskinongé candidate was appointed to the Canada Employment Insurance Commission, as was the Welland candidate. That's not taking into account the 16 people with connections to the Conservative Party who have been appointed to the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada. That's a lot of people.

As the new president, what do you plan to do about those partisan appointments that should be excluded according to the very mandate of your commission?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by saying that the commission's mandate is to protect non-partisanship when it comes to public servants. Under that mandate, we have to establish a balance between public servants' right to participate in political activities and the fact that they must do their work impartially. Our mandate also includes investigating allegations, if necessary, and taking corrective measures. However, we have to consider every situation on a case-by-case basis. That applies only to the activities of public servants whose position comes under the Public Service Employment Act.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Robinson.

Maria Barrados, who held your position before you, said the following in a March 2011 appearance: However, there is no independent assurance that the appointments to positions of leadership are merit-based and not politically influenced.

As members of the official opposition, we earnestly hope that things will change and that impartiality will be more present from now on.

I will use my remaining time to ask you a question on the freedom of expression of federal public servants in important positions.

Last July, Mr. Sheikh left Statistics Canada. He disagreed with Mr. Clement's decision to cut costs by abolishing the mandatory long-form census. The chief economic analyst at Statistics Canada, Mr. Cross, recently left his job, claiming he was no longer able to express his opinions in a free and independent manner.

What do you intend to do about those situations?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Thank you for the question.

I could perhaps clarify an aspect of my mandate under the Public Service Employment Act. That aspect consists in monitoring situations involving current public servants. I don't think it applies to public servants who have left the public service.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

What do you intend to do in the future to make sure that unfortunate things like this don't happen again?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Our website contains tools all public servants can use to understand their responsibilities when it comes to public impartiality. They can use those tools to figure out whether they are acting in a non-partisan way. It all depends on the nature and the profile of their position, on their duties and on the type of political activity. It is our mandate to provide all public servants with advice. They can also use our tools to determine whether they are in a conflict of interest situation.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

That's your time, Alexandre. Thank you.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I wish you the best of luck.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

The next five minutes go to John McCallum with the Liberals.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ms. Robinson, for being with us today.

You have probably heard the story from a week or so ago about six public servants from Citizenship and Immigration Canada effectively masquerading as new Canadians in a citizenship ceremony for a media appearance. Given your responsibility for, I guess I could say, the professionalism of the public service, do you have any comments on the appropriateness of that situation?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

I can't comment directly on the situation because it hasn't been brought to the attention of the commission. Obviously, I have seen things about that in the newspaper.

Public servants can come forward, or if people have concerns, they can bring those concerns forward to the commission. If there is a concern that a public servant has been involved in political activities, the commission can look at those things. I don't have a lot more information about that particular event.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Okay.

The next question is about order in council appointments. Your predecessor, when questioned by us, did indicate some concern that the Public Service Commission didn't have any role in order in council appointments. Also, she expressed the opinion that if the position was advertised as being bilingual, and then the government wished to appoint someone who was not bilingual, they should restart the whole process. Obviously, if others who were unilingual had known that a unilingual person was acceptable, those others might have applied.

I guess my question is twofold: whether you agree or not with your predecessor's concerns over order in council appointments falling outside your mandate; and also whether you agree that, in the circumstance I described, the whole hiring process should have been restarted.

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

The nominations by Governor in Council are not under the mandate of the Public Service Commission. I can speak about how appointments are done under the Public Service Employment Act. I'm not as familiar with how the nominations are done for Governor in Council appointments.

I think, as the former president said, the nominations under the Public Service Employment Act are based on the fact that a person must meet the qualifications and must meet merit. There are two parts to merit; there are essential qualifications and asset qualifications. Under essential qualifications, a candidate must meet all of those qualifications.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

So at least in the case of appointments that do come under your jurisdiction, if the position was advertised as requiring bilingualism, you wouldn't hire a person who was not bilingual. Or, if you wanted to, you would have to restart the process, saying that the position did not require a bilingual person. Is that right?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Under the Public Service Employment Act, someone must meet all of the essential qualifications for the position. If they do not, then the process is normally declared unproductive. Then the department has the chance to go out and relaunch a competition.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

This is the last question. We are in a period where there are likely to be significant cuts announced in the upcoming budget. We don't know exactly what, but it appears they may be substantial. I guess that poses a special challenge for you. My question is, how do you ensure that the public service remains effective, professional, and merit-based in an environment of potentially significant reductions in the size of the public service?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Thank you very much for the question.

We have two key roles to play during the transition the government will face during the deficit reduction action plan. The first one is that the commission is responsible for a policy called selection for retention. In cases where departments have to downsize their workforce, that is the policy, which is a merit-based policy that departments will use to determine who will be retained. It is a merit-based process. We must ensure that it's applied in a fair and transparent way. That's a very key role that the commission must play. Since I arrived in my job, I very much focused on supporting departments and human resource specialists, so that we can send lots of information out about this policy and apply it appropriately.

The second thing that's really important is that the commission is responsible for the priority administration system. That's the system that employees who are declared surplus use, for the period of time that they are on the priority system, to find jobs for which they are qualified.

If I could also add, looking to the future and notwithstanding that we are going through this period of adjustment, I think it's really critical that we have an eye to the future and that we continue to do some targeted recruitment in areas where we, over the short term, have shortages. We need to think about ensuring that we sustain our capacity as a public service over the long term.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you very much.