Evidence of meeting #43 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was alberta.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Shannon Dean  Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta
Philip Massolin  Committee Research Coordinator, Committees Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta
Paul Thomas  Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

We see the clock and it's 3:30.

We're very pleased and grateful to welcome two guests today who will share with us in our examination of the issue of estimates and supply, in this case as it pertains to the Legislative Assembly of Alberta.

We'd like to welcome Shannon Dean, senior parliamentary counsel and director of House services, the House services branch; and Mr. Philip Massolin, committee research coordinator, committees branch. We very much appreciate your taking the time to be with us today to share your views as we collectively try to improve Parliament's oversight and scrutiny of the estimates process.

Our normal custom is to ask witnesses to make a brief presentation of five or ten minutes, as they see fit. Then we will have one hour together. We welcome the opportunity to ask questions from all of the parties present.

My name is Pat Martin. I'm the chair of the government operations committee.

Welcome to both of you. You have the floor.

3:30 p.m.

Shannon Dean Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We're pleased to be here via video conference from Edmonton.

I believe you've been provided with a brief overview of our estimates process, which we provided to the committee clerk last week. My comments will be very brief to give you the gist of what we do out here.

Since the 1990s the estimates process in Alberta has undergone a number of transformations in terms of committee involvement, but there has been a consistent practice of presenting a budget address in February or March, at which time the main estimates are also tabled. Exceptions to this timeframe have occurred during election year, or when there's been a change in leadership.

The process begins with the Minister of Finance tabling the main estimates for the government departments. This occurs immediately prior to the minister's beginning the budget address. Depending on the year and the date of budget address, there may also be interim or supplementary estimates tabled at that time. There are also a number of other documents that are tabled and must be made public when the minister tables the main estimates, and those are the government's strategic plan; the ministry business plans, which are conducted on a three-year basis; a consolidated fiscal plan; and a consolidated capital plan. This is a statutory requirement in the Government Accountability Act.

Under our rules, once the main estimates are tabled they stand referred to committees of the assembly known as policy field committees. The assignment of a department to a particular committee is determined by the portfolio or mandate of each of these committees. Currently there are five policy field committees and 21 government departments. The only department that's not assigned to a policy field committee is the executive council, which is considered by the committee of supply. As you know, the committee of the whole is comprised of all 87 members of the assembly.

Our standing orders do allow for some variation of this procedure if the House leaders agree to a different format. For instance, this spring, of the 21 government departments, the estimates of 16 were considered by policy field committees, and the remaining five were considered in the committee of supply. During committee consideration, members have up to three hours to consider one department. Once all of the estimates have been considered for all departments, they are reported in the committee of supply and followed by a final vote.

One of the questions that has been identified by your committee clerk is whether all estimates are reviewed, or whether some are deemed to have been reported. I can advise you that they are all in fact considered by either a policy field committee or the committee of supply for three hours—again, for each department—or two hours in the case of the executive council. All of these departments are reported on before the final vote in the process.

There are some specific rules that apply to a committee consideration of main estimates, and they are as follows. Consideration begins with the minister's opening remarks. The official opposition is then entitled to the next hour for questions, and then there are two 20-minute blocks that belong to other opposition members. It's anticipated that this allocation may change, given the results of the last election. We now have an increase in the number of recognized opposition parties.

Unlike at other committee meetings, department officials are not permitted to address the committee, only the minister is. There's no voting that occurs during consideration of estimates. Amendments may be presented, but the votes defer to the date for the final vote on the estimates in the committee of supply.

In theory, once we get to the day for the final vote there may be a single vote on all of the government estimates, but this may be varied by any member who can request on one day's notice that the estimates of a particular department be voted separately. The other votes that could occur would be votes on amendments that had been presented during committee consideration.

Finally, the types of votes that are presented in the main estimates fall into three different categories. The first is expense or operating expense. The second is capital investment, and the third is non-budgetary disbursements. The practice of having these three categories of votes has been in place in Alberta since 1993. Prior to that time, voting was done on a program by program basis.

Just to close the loop in the cycle, once the vote on the main estimates occurs, the committee of supply rises and reports to the House, and the report from the committee of supply details each approved expenditure for all departments.

One of the matters that has been raised with us was whether parliamentarians can reallocate funds between votes. In Alberta that would not be an option that's available. That would be considered a transfer of funds, which would necessitate a supplementary supply estimate.

Finally to close the loop, following the committee of supply's report, the introduction of the appropriation bill takes place, typically the next sitting day. The bill then proceeds one stage per sitting day. So in a typical year the appropriation bill will receive royal assent approximately one week after the vote on the estimates.

That concludes my remarks, Mr. Chair, and we'd be pleased to answer any questions you or the committee have.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Thank you very much for that overview, Ms. Dean.

We begin with the opposition asking the first round of questions. Who would like to begin from the NDP?

Mr. Denis Blanchette will have five minutes to pose questions.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

Even though the presentation was very brief, there was a great deal to consider. The documents you provided along with the main estimates are interesting. This leads me to the way these estimates are presented and the resources provided to members in order to review them.

Could you talk about the resources and documents that are provided at the same time? How does that make things clearer for members of Parliament?

3:35 p.m.

Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta

Shannon Dean

In answer to your question about the resources given to members of the committee, members of each caucus have research budgets and nothing in addition to that is provided for review of supply documents in particular.

In terms of the documents that are tabled when the budget address takes place, again, there are the main estimates, the strategic plan, and the consolidated fiscal plan as well as the three-year business plans for each ministry.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Is it difficult to table all of these documents and the main estimates at the same time, or is this done in a relatively routine fashion without presenting too many problems for Alberta's government?

3:35 p.m.

Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta

Shannon Dean

They're made public as soon as they're tabled. Each member receives copies of the package on his or her desk in the chamber.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

You said that the estimates were deemed approved. You used the word "deemed". Is this common practice, in Alberta, to approve estimates without studying them, or do you have time to review most of them?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

She said the opposite.

3:35 p.m.

Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta

Shannon Dean

I think perhaps there has been some misinterpretation of my opening remarks. In Alberta no estimates are deemed approved. Every department is considered by either a policy field committee or the committee of supply.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you very much.

You said that you decided to do away with program-by-program voting. Did I understand correctly?

3:40 p.m.

Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta

Shannon Dean

You are correct, we do not vote program by program.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

So before, it was done.

3:40 p.m.

Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta

Shannon Dean

Can you pose that question again, please?

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Previously, you adopted the budget on a program-by-program basis. Why did you change that system?

3:40 p.m.

Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta

Shannon Dean

It changed in 1993. Amendments to legislation mandated three types of supply votes for each department. I can't speak to the rationale at the time but it was brought in when Premier Klein took office, and the legislation that was brought forward was called the Deficit Elimination Act.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

You touched on some of the changes made over the years. Even though you do not know why you went from the program-by-program voting process to the one you have today, what prompted Alberta's legislative assembly to make these changes over the past 20 years?

3:40 p.m.

Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta

Shannon Dean

Again, the three types of votes that are presented for each department have been in place for almost 20 years. I can't speak to anything further with respect to program by program voting, because I've only been here since 1996.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Thank you, Denis. That concludes your time.

Next for the Conservatives we have Mr. Jacques Gourde for five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for giving us their precious time.

Ms. Dean, during consideration of the estimates, do only the ministers appear before the committees or are they sometimes replaced by their deputies?

3:40 p.m.

Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta

Shannon Dean

Ministers are scheduled to appear before the committees, and only ministers may address the committees. However, the minister is often accompanied by his or her deputy and two or three other staff.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Do the policy field committees have the authority to reduce the estimates? If this is the case, have they often used this authority and have committees ever rejected the estimates?

3:40 p.m.

Senior Parliamentary Counsel and Director of House Services, House Services Branch, Legislative Assembly of Alberta

Shannon Dean

No voting occurs during the policy field committees' consideration of estimates. All the voting is deferred until the final day in the process. The short answer is no.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

When is the budget presented? Do the main estimates capture those measures announced in this same budget?