Evidence of meeting #24 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Hume  Executive Director, Citizen Engagement, Government Communications and Public Engagement, British Columbia Government
Diane Nadeau  Chief Information Strategist, Office of the Chief Information Officer, Government of New Brunswick
Gordon O'Connor  Carleton—Mississippi Mills, CPC

8:45 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Order, please. We are going to continue our study on the government's open data practices.

Joining us today are two experts representing two different provinces. In the room with us is David Hume, Executive Director, Citizen Engagement, Government Communications and Public Engagement, at the British Columbia government, and by videoconference, from New Brunswick, we have Diane Nadeau, Chief Information Strategist, Office of the Chief Information Officer.

According to our usual practices, each witness will have 10 minutes for their presentation. Members of the committee will then be able to ask questions as they see fit.

Mr. Hume, thank you for joining us today and for travelling from Vancouver to Ottawa. Without further delay, I give you the floor.

8:45 a.m.

David Hume Executive Director, Citizen Engagement, Government Communications and Public Engagement, British Columbia Government

Thanks very much for having me. As ever, it's a really fun thing to be able to come to a committee meeting like this. You probably don't get public servants saying that to you very often but when you're coming from a provincial context, it's really interesting to come and talk to federal colleagues. I prepared a few notes that I'll be referring to. I think our clerk helped me distribute those.

I work in the Ministry of Technology Innovation and Citizens' Services in a particular agency called Government Communications and Public Engagement. I've been in the role that I'm in for about five years now.

The direction I received said, “The committee would like to know your opinion on users' needs in relation to the federal government's open data initiative, the economic and social benefits associated with open data, the best practices in other jurisdictions in relation to open data initiatives, and the importance of collaboration between the various levels of government, federal, provincial, and municipal.” So I'm going to work through each one of those items and I'll start at the beginning.

Let me start by talking about users' needs. I can say a few things about users' needs with respects to open data initiatives mainly because I'm the program lead for one of those. I think that what impacts us in British Columbia is also relevant at the federal level as well. There are seven points that I think are important to focus on.

First and foremost is the findability of data. That is to say, if you're going to be able to provide data to the public in this way, they need to be able to find it. It's pretty straightforward.

But there is also the accessibility of data that is in a means that's really suitable for the people who are coming to use it. A number of technologies are available, things like APIs, web mapping services. We can go into details about what those are in the conversation. Making sure that people can connect to the data in a way that is relevant to them and that serves their needs is really important.

The usability of web interfaces as well as the data itself, including the legal terms that are associated with that data, are critically important.

The quality of the data—that it's correct, complete, consistent, and that it's without redundancy—is also a very important element in the usability of it, a very important need that users are looking for.

Users are also looking for value in data and in particular relevant to particular sectors, especially where they can take that raw data and then turn it into information that is applicable in their particular business context.

Engagement with users to understand their needs and make them aware of the resource and spark collaborative innovations is also an important element. Typically we do see users really wanting to see organizations that are running these types of programs do a significant amount of outreach, to be able to learn from them and be able to work with them and bring them together in community events.

Lastly, users are typically looking for signals of internal culture change that indicate that government is really serious about what it's doing around open data. They're going to be looking for policy statements or statements from political leadership that indicate that government is committed to doing what it's doing. But most of all, they're really interested in seeing government consuming its own data. That really sends a signal that it's committed to the ongoing supply of that data.

We can talk in a lot more detail about any of those points. As far as the federal effort is concerned, I think they're mainly doing a good job across all these different levels and making good progress. Speaking as a program owner, I can tell you too that there's always room for improvement. A good example of that is around improving the findability of data, because data is often described in ways that aren't easy for average users to understand. Often it can be quite self-referential to a field. We need to do a better job of improving in plain language the way that data is described so that more people can find it more easily and understand the opportunity of using it. That's going to be work that will be ongoing. At both the provincial and the federal levels, we will need to continue to do this over a number of years.

As far as the economic and social benefits of open data are concerned, you may be aware that McKinsey and Company estimates the open data opportunity to be worth about $3 trillion in value.

That is an extraordinary number. It blows my mind a little bit that this number is that big. I think it's really interesting. I don't think we've met that potential yet, but it is a signal of the huge potential in open data, and I think through better access to data in general.

Data is a foundational element for our digital economy and an important element in decision-making of all kinds, and so data can really contribute to a number of outcomes.

One is that digital companies can use the data in products and services they are building, which creates economic opportunity for them. Teachers and students in schools, universities, and colleges can use data in educational activities helping to create a skilled workforce. Researchers can access data to improve their findings, and that, at the highest level, just improves our knowledge of the world and can help spark innovations and drive ahead our understanding of the world around us. Businesses can inform their decisions with access to data, helping to secure investment in jobs. Government can make more evidence-based decisions about programs and policies and use the data in its own services, improving results for taxpayers.

In B.C. we're seeing things like this happen in all of those different areas that I mentioned. Open data used by journalists has been driving public debates about liquor policy reform, climate change, and education.

Other good examples are applications created by enthusiasts outside of government. There's an application called SchoolZone that helps parents understand how to get their kids to school in the safest way possible by bringing crash statistics together with school locations and helping people plot their route in accordance.

Other examples include something that the B.C. Ministry of Education has done. It has created a Discover Your School app that helps parents understand the data profile of local schools across the province. I can tell you that was really useful when my wife and I were considering buying a house. I think it was a really great use of government using its own open data to be able to help get better information to the public to help inform their decisions.

But as you would expect, I think we would like to see more things happening, especially around the creation of economic growth through data. Our current thinking is it will be important for us to develop a deeper understanding of our data holdings and wrestle with the question about what data can be of the highest value to our society and to our economy. This is important for us to look at, because as an organization we have limited resources to apply to ensuring our data is of the highest quality, reliability, and accessibility. We need to be able to make good choices, to make sure we can maximize the impact of the open data opportunity for British Columbians and Canadians. That is a challenge for us, because much of our high-value data is something we ask currently people to pay for. Those funds are baked into the business models in many programs, and so it's very difficult for us to change if we want to shift to open data where that data is provided for free.

Moving on to best practices in open data initiatives and inter-jurisdictional collaboration, there are many good practices in the different areas I outlined earlier, around the things that users are looking for.

Looking internationally, I am impressed by the U.K.'s work in this area, in particular, in their investment in growing their data capability. It's clear to me that what they're doing is growing past their focus on numbers of datasets published. They are looking at creating a more holistic vision around data capability that will position the U.K. as a global leader in their ability to analyze, manage, and create value from data. I think that's a really strong and interesting approach. They are connecting the publication of data to the creation of a skilled workforce that can use that data. I think that's a powerful conversation. Her Majesty's government report Seizing the data opportunity, from October 2013, is very interesting, and I would commend it to you.

Other areas of best practice I can see emerging are a result of the collaboration occurring at the pan-Canadian level, at what's called the open data and information working group, which is part of the public sector service delivery council, the Public Sector CIO Council. My federal counterpart at Treasury Board Secretariat and I co-chair this.

At a working level, we're seeing some real advances in approaches to data inventory and cataloguing, a more standard approach to data licensing. There are a lot of good practices emerging about improving the search of data catalogues. All of these things are related to the findability of data, which as I said, is really fundamental to the whole endeavour.

As part of this, we think data standards created around high-value datasets will also be a very important area of work. In British Columbia we're watching, with great interest, the Canadian Open Data Institute, which was created in the last federal budget. We hope that it can be active in all of these different areas.

We're also seeing leaps forward in consuming data from across jurisdictions to create new kinds of digital services more efficiently than ever before. Our team at DataBC recently created what's called a geocoder, which is basically a tool that allows people to find the location of addresses really quickly. If you've ever used Google Maps and fired an address in there and then you see a point on a map, that's the result of a geocoder being able to relate an address to a latitude and longitude on a map. In B.C., we've recently created one.

This service was created more quickly with a higher level of accuracy than many other geocoders available out there because it was consuming open data from local governments and municipalities, so consuming their address data to create results. The efficiency gain from not having to negotiate with other governments, to be able to access that data, to simply be able to consume it, was a real leap forward in our productivity.

For ourselves, an emerging area of real interest is the idea of promoting data literacy. Our teams run events with schools and help young people learn to work with data, particular with geospatial data. It's really fabulous and exciting to be able to see young people engaged in using these things, and it's really great to be in classrooms and watching a next generation build some skills that we think are going to be critical for the next number of years.

B.C. was an early leader in open data at the provincial level. We got started in July 2011. And I think it's exciting to see other jurisdictions moving forward and leaping ahead of us in many ways—Ontario, Quebec, Newfoundland, and Alberta in particular. I'm looking forward to learning more about what our colleagues in New Brunswick are doing.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you. I will have to stop you, but there will be questions and you will be able to continue later.

We will now go to Ms. Nadeau, who is joining us through videoconference, directly from New Brunswick, and who, let me remind you, is the Chief Information Strategist at the Office of the Chief Information Officer.

Thank you for taking part in our committee this morning, Ms. Nadeau. You have the floor for 10 minutes.

9 a.m.

Diane Nadeau Chief Information Strategist, Office of the Chief Information Officer, Government of New Brunswick

Thank you very much.

Good morning, honourable members of Parliament of the standing committee.

What I have to talk to you about today is a little bit different from what Mr. Hume talked about, but it is very complementary.

The process of opening government data today is in its early stages and there are many opportunities for growth and improvement. Today I will talk about opportunities for an open data strategic plan, and recommendations to address the 10 principles for opening up government data. Some of those principles were named by Mr. Hume so I won't go into them.

The first step in the development of this strategic plan must begin with the understanding of government data and which data can be made public. In order to understand the information throughout the country, this data must be categorized using standard three-tier government taxonomy of capabilities and in some instances, data-specific taxonomies.

The second step is to understand which data is the most strategic to open in order to prioritize and invest in the right projects. I understand that data should be made open by default, however governments in general must be prudent in their investments today. Government will need advice from the private sector, academia, and the public in general to determine which data is the most valuable to open.

In some cases the government will have to ask for business cases to support those investments, even from the industries. For example, in 2006 the Government of New Brunswick geomatics review called to set up a spatial data infrastructure with definition of standards for foundational datasets and outreach. One of the mandates was to foster development of the geomatics industry in New Brunswick.

Today the infrastructure is called GeoNB. It's quite successful. There are currently 46 unique datasets available. We experience over 48,000 downloads of files and about 80,000 page views per year. For a small province like ours it is very good. The portal has also received national and international awards for its ease of use, utility and packaging data, and unique approach to ensuring foundational datasets are maintained as core functions within custodial departments and made available at no cost. Data is also shared today with Natural Resources Canada through a partnership to incorporate it into national networks. This infrastructure has contributed to the success of the University of New Brunswick, which has a world-renowned geodesy and geomatics engineering program, and yes, this has contributed to the development of the geomatics industry in New Brunswick.

This is just one example and there is so much more to accomplish. I appreciate all of the examples that Mr. Hume put on the table.

One issue is that today data is available in each government's format and very few are using international standards and that's more or less the focus of my presentation. As long as the private sector or academia is using the same engine and same local standards, we can share information and we can open it. At the end of my script you can see in the appendix an example where calculations using imperial and metrics actually cost NASA because they didn't translate the information properly.

The future to extend this new industry capability is limited without applying standards. Industries will not be able to expand nationally, regionally, or internationally unless they transform the data over and over again with due diligence, unlike the NASA example. This can be an overhead cost to each industry. Furthermore, the open government data will eventually become part of the industry's value chain. Providing quality, reusable, and timely government data will become more and more crucial.

I want to quote Sam Walton, founder of Walmart:

People think we got big by putting big stores in small towns. Really, we got big by replacing inventory with information.

He participated in making the value chain very efficient.

The third step is to develop and manage a pan-Canadian information infrastructure of standards. I believe today you have one in the construction industry, and you maintain a national master specification at the federal government. What we are saying here for open data is that we need this infrastructure of standards.

How do we develop this infrastructure to support and prepare our industries? How do we accomplish this, when each government still supports many data silos and finds it difficult to open data even within its own government? How do we start accomplishing this as a country?

The following are our recommendations for Canada to lead. Canada must establish a Canadian data services organization.

Its first purpose is to inform governments and Canadian industry about international, regional, national, and local data standards and taxonomies.

Second is to develop data standards where none exist, by finding the best subject matter expert and supporting his or her organization to develop that standard.

Third is to develop a data governance so that organizations responsible for opening government data get the attention they require to start or continue delivering quality and reusable data, which will eventually become part of the industry's value chains.

Fourth, assure that governments adhere to a standard once approved by the data governance committee. Adhering to a standard will cost government, and therefore this may not be on their list of priorities. Therefore you may need a funding element.

Fifth is to support all the 10 principles.

How will a new Canadian data services organization respond to these recommendations? Let me explain.

In 2008, the Government of New Brunswick performed limited research on international standards. It showed that more than 40 authorities and more than 1,500 standards existed back then. That's six years ago. If we don't collaborate, this will be an overhead cost for each government and industry to locate those standards, analyze them, and use them.

Today, committees establish separate collaboration sites, and they are silos in themselves. We need to transform this space by providing one pan-Canadian repository, and we can all populate it via collaboration. This can be done by forming a Standardspedia. That's an example I will use.

I hope everybody knows about Wikipedia. Wikis are widely used today. The Government of New Brunswick has developed a proof of concept for Standardspedia using MediaWiki, the same platform used for Wikipedia. However, the Government of New Brunswick did not see itself as the owner for Standardspedia and tried to find an owner four to six years ago. Unfortunately, the idea of open data was new at the time. We tried to get funding by academia, ACOA, etc. Unfortunately, to qualify, Standardspedia needed to be made commercially available. We had envisioned Standardspedia to be a free tool to support industries. The concept for Standardspedia has since been on hold, and I believe this is the right time to revive the idea. We would like you to consider establishing a Canadian data services organization and Standardspedia in New Brunswick, which would serve the country and eventually the world.

Information is an asset. Information must be managed as an asset all along value chains. Let Canada become the Walmart of governments around the world.

I would like to thank you for the opportunity to share our opinion with you.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you for your presentation and for sharing your expertise, Ms. Nadeau.

My thanks also go to Mr. Hume for his presentation.

I will now give the floor to members of the committee. Mr. Ravignat, you have five minutes.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank the witnesses for their much appreciated presence.

My first question is for Ms. Nadeau. In your presentation, you talked about government data made open by default. You also said that this can be a challenge for some governments.

Right now, the federal government does not really intend to pursue such a policy. Could you tell me what you mean by open data by default and how that can be achieved?

9:10 a.m.

Chief Information Strategist, Office of the Chief Information Officer, Government of New Brunswick

Diane Nadeau

To make data open by default, we are setting up a new system. The information is organized so that it can be entered in databases whose basic criteria are compatible with international criteria allowing direct access to information.

These days, we need to understand the complex systems in place before we can get to the information. The secret is to look at the information, to determine what information we want to make accessible and to provide that information to the public and to industry.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

What you are saying is very interesting, but I have to cut you off to ask you another question.

Our leader of the official opposition said that an NDP government would be open by default. This concept seems to suggest that the data will have to be submitted within a reasonable timeframe. In your view, is the speed with which the data are submitted an important consideration in making the government open by default?

9:10 a.m.

Chief Information Strategist, Office of the Chief Information Officer, Government of New Brunswick

Diane Nadeau

Yes, it is an important consideration. Governments process a lot of information. They will have to determine which data are more valid and use their resources to make the data open.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Thank you, Ms. Nadeau. That is very interesting.

My next question is for Mr. Hume.

In your presentation you talked about the importance—and I see your title is citizen engagement. I understand open government to be basically three things. You have open information. You have open data. You have open dialogue. I want to talk about the dialogue piece, which this government hasn't really done much of. Given you're an expert in citizen engagement, could you perhaps give us some of your best practices?

What needs to be done to ensure that data is used by citizens? How do you do that, and what are the best practices?

9:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Citizen Engagement, Government Communications and Public Engagement, British Columbia Government

David Hume

There are a number of them. Let me go back to a couple of examples where it's been important for our purposes in B.C., just to give you some insight.

We use data as a matter of course when we're doing a lot of communications around public policy issues. That's at a level of using statistics and facts, quick facts and news releases, all the way through to providing interactive maps that allow people to dive in specifically to understand a particular issue in depth.

We recently ran a pretty significant consultation around reform to the liquor policy in British Columbia. As part of that, we created an interactive map that allowed people to see where their.... Colloquially, the map was called “Where you can drink”. It helped you understand the accessibility of liquor in the place where you lived, so where you could buy it, where you could consume it, all those kinds of things. It was an important contribution to be able to understand that if you're going to liberalize liquor laws in the province, what could that impact be, how liberal were they now, and all that kind of thing. It was a really useful exercise because it helped people understand more effectively the issues that were before them in the consultation.

Merci beaucoup.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you. I must stop you to give the floor to Mr. Trottier, who also has five minutes.

May 8th, 2014 / 9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, guests, for being here this morning.

I want to ask you about a very important area for provincial governments. I'm glad that you're here because we've had representatives from other governments in other parts of the world. We've had municipal governments. But I think there's a real opportunity for Canada to have...and you talked about the open data working group among the provinces in the area of health care, because that consumes typically half of provincial budgets, and it seems to be growing.

I think there are things that we could do with open data, and perhaps the federal government—which doesn't really run any health care facilities, but plays a role in health care when it comes to certain areas where there's a synergy among the provinces, for example, research and drug approvals and so on—could play a role in establishing certain standards when it comes to data.

We've been talking for several years about the importance of sharing information and benchmarks among provinces when it comes to wait times for critical surgery. There are other areas that are equally important, and it's a real frustration among constituents of mine when you talk about the wait time for getting a referral to a specialist, for example.

I'd like to hear from the experience of your provinces. What kind of work is being done in making this more open and transparent for citizens to know what the wait times are? Maybe they can compare notes with other provinces. But it's even for referring physicians in that example of the wait time to see a specialist. A constituent mentioned one time it was suspected they might have had Crohn's disease, so they were referred to a gastroenterologist, and then when they established the appointment with the gastroenterologist it was nine months before being able to have an endoscopy. So when you're told you have a fairly critical illness and you're told just wait for nine months, that's a very frustrating experience for a patient. But that referring physician might have been able to find a specialist who had a shorter wait time.

These are the kinds of situations that come up in health care.

Starting with you, Mr. Hume, what kinds of things is the Province of British Columbia doing in terms of open data around health care to improve the lives of citizens and patients?

9:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Citizen Engagement, Government Communications and Public Engagement, British Columbia Government

David Hume

There are a few things. I could start most directly to your question about the issue of wait times. The Ministry of Health publishes online, although I don't believe they're publishing any open data yet, but you can go and look online about wait times for specific surgeons or for specific kinds of surgery. That's available publicly to help inform people about choices that they want to make around specific surgeons they may be using. Otherwise we're all publishing, to a large degree. A huge amount of the data that we're publishing as open data is vital statistics data. That's births, deaths, marriages, reasons for deaths, those kinds of elements. That's really important in helping people to understand community health and community health indicators that are available as open data for them.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Maybe I'll just ask Madame Nadeau briefly, then I'll have a bit of a follow-up question.

Madame Nadeau, what is the Province of New Brunswick doing with respect to open data related to health care?

9:20 a.m.

Chief Information Strategist, Office of the Chief Information Officer, Government of New Brunswick

Diane Nadeau

Currently we share information with a research data centre located at the University of New Brunswick to do any research related to health. Obviously it's not private information but more aggregate information. I think that's similar to other provinces. We are following on Manitoba or other provinces.

On the question of the wait times, that would be a little bit difficult because trying to find a doctor for whom you don't have to wait nine months when maybe you could have an appointment with somebody else in three months—you would have to have the schedules of all of the doctors, which we don't have today. We don't manage their offices.

I would like to explore that idea, but I don't have any answers for you today.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Okay.

I'm just wondering if in the open data working group that is something that's being discussed, or if there is a plan to address this. It's an ongoing, day-to-day problem and frustration, and perhaps an opportunity in terms of our health care system in the sense that each province has some similar methods. In some ways, Canada might be better positioned than, say, the United States or other places because we have a certain similarity in our health care systems across provinces. We could establish some standards and then compare ourselves.

Do the provinces willingly do that, bearing in mind that there are elements of the health care system that are private and they might not be willing to share that information?

9:20 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you, Mr. Trottier. Unfortunately, that is all the time you have.

Mrs. Day, it is your turn. You also have five minutes.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome our two guests. We are happy to have them here.

Mr. Hume, my first question is for you. You talked about socio-economic benefits to the tune of $3 trillion. Who pockets this kind of money? Is that the money you make and redistribute to social housing or health? How does that transfer of money work?

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Citizen Engagement, Government Communications and Public Engagement, British Columbia Government

David Hume

My understanding of McKinsey's work on this is that the value that's created is a culmination of not only sort of commercial economic gain but also productivity. So the answer to your question would be yes, there are opportunities to create more streamlined services that could be more efficient. I used the example of a geocoder, which is a small example. They would have access to data in much more streamlined ways to be able to produce all kinds of services.

Yes, within the system that would create opportunities to create savings that then could be re-prioritized to other sorts of areas.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Does that mean that our various governments could make profits just from open data and redistribute the wealth?

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Citizen Engagement, Government Communications and Public Engagement, British Columbia Government

David Hume

I would hesitate to use the word “profit”, but I would say that we would be able to achieve savings using open data as part of our service delivery design, yes. With those savings we would be able to release those funds for other purposes.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Are you able to provide examples that show the potential for socio-economic development with data of that kind?

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Citizen Engagement, Government Communications and Public Engagement, British Columbia Government

David Hume

One of the challenges with that question is that there are so many. One thing that we are active in doing is beginning to share transportation data and highway event data in a much more consumable way. That data will be able to inform anyone who is in the business of moving goods and services around the province of British Columbia how to do that more efficiently. If you use GPS in your car, for example, we would be able to share much more extensively the data that would be impacting your route to home, to work, to wherever you're going, so that you would be able to save time and make better choices when you're on the road, which then has knock-on effects of being able to reduce carbon emissions, pollution, health/air quality—

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Have you set up some kind of public consultation? How are people reacting? Are they reacting? Do you have an evaluation for your site?