Evidence of meeting #35 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Matthews  Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada
Marcia Santiago  Executive Director, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Gordon O'Connor  Carleton—Mississippi Mills, CPC

8:45 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Good morning.

Let us start the 35th meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates right away.

Today, we are fortunate to have with us Mr. Matthews, the Comptroller General of Canada, and Marcia Santiago, Executive Director, Expenditure Management Sector. They are joining us for our study of the supplementary estimates (B) and for the study of the departmental performance reports for 2013-2014.

As usual, I will first let Mr. Matthews make his presentation and then committee members will be able to ask questions on the two points in our agenda.

My sincere thanks to Mr. Matthews for joining us today. He has the floor for 10 to 15 minutes.

Mr. Matthews, the floor is yours.

8:45 a.m.

Bill Matthews Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to all the members of the committee.

We are pleased to be here with you today to discuss the supplementary estimates (B) 2014-2015. As usual, we have prepared a short presentation to give you an overview of the supplementary estimates (B). As you mentioned, Mr. Chair, I am accompanied by my colleague Marcia Santiago, who is well known to members of the committee.

I would also like to alert the committee members that I have changed jobs. I am now the Comptroller General of Canada, but I am here for the last time in my old role. Mr. Brian Pagan is with us this morning, and he is replacing me in my old role. He is on day four in the job, though, so he is just here to observe today. The next time around you will be very well served by Mr. Pagan, and Marcia Santiago will be here as well. I just thought I would highlight that for the committee members before we start.

I do hope all members have received a copy of the presentation. The goal here is to give you a quick summary of what's in the supplementary estimates (B), and hopefully give you some information to allow you to focus your questions.

I do note, Mr. Chairman, that we have two members I haven't seen here before. I do know that estimates are a little complicated, so if there are questions about how estimates work, we're happy to take those as well, or questions on any of the content we have here.

If I could start on slide 3, this is just a reminder on the organization of the estimates documents themselves. They start with an introduction. In that introduction, starting on page 10 of section 1, you'll get a sense of the current year authorities of each department, but you'll also get a sense of the previous year's authorities and what they spent in the previous year. If you're actually looking for a quick summary of the estimates, that's a very good place to start. You'll get a department-by-department list.

In that introduction section you will also find the largest items that will be voted on in the supplementary estimates—so that's a good place to look as well—and any structural changes that are in the estimates. In these supplementary estimates (B) we have some structural changes around the administrative tribunal support services.

Last, the thing I will highlight for you in that introductory section is a listing of the horizontal initiatives. Horizontal initiatives are any initiative where multiple departments are receiving money to jointly collaborate on delivery of something. Some of those you will have seen before, and some are new, but they are multiple department initiatives.

The second big section of the estimates document is the details by organization. That represents by far and away the largest section of the document. It is department by department, and outlines just what the new authorities are being granted for or being requested for. There are 63 organizations covered in these supplementary estimates (B). If you're wondering why it's not all departments, it's not like the main estimates where we do see all organizations. In the supplementary estimates we see only the organizations that are requesting new funds, so that's why we see only 63.

In the annex to the supplementary estimates (B) document you will actually find the proposed bill that will eventually be voted on to grant supply.

I'll remind you that online you can find additional information, including allocations of central votes, allocations by program, and other types of information that might be of interest to committee.

I'll note a quick reminder that on page 4 what we're looking at in these supplementary estimates (B) is $2.9 billion in voted spending for 63 organizations. We also have $327 million in statutory adjustments, which I will speak to in a few moments, for a total of $3.2 billion, all budgetary.

I will highlight for members that in non-budgetary, we do have two $1 items here where we're actually just changing vote wording or things like that.

I would remind members that non-budgetary items are things like loans, where if all goes as planned, there is no impact on the fiscal situation of the government. If you issue a loan and it is repaid, there is no impact. But all of the real dollars here are budgetary in nature.

On slide 5, we like to take a few moments to compare these supplementary estimates to previous ones in terms of totals, and to situate members in terms of where the spending is for the current fiscal year or where the authorities are at for the current fiscal year. Supplementary estimates (B) is always the biggest of the three supplementary estimates. You will notice that it is smaller than last year's supplementary estimates (B). If you're wondering why that is, last year's supplementary estimates (B) was unusually large. We had a few items in there concerning disaster financial assistance, as well as a Manuge settlement and another out-of-court settlement. This year we're returning back to a more normal level of supplementary estimates (B).

We've spoken about the overall trends at this committee before. The trend is that voted spending is going down. That's largely to do with some of the reductions that have been taking place. Statutory spending is going up and it is going up at a greater rate than voted spending.

If you're wondering what is driving the increases in statutory spending, it's the same story we have spoken about here before. Legislated increases to the Canada health transfer, as well as the old age security programs and the aging population are causing the statutory amounts to increase.

Again for new members, if you're looking for an explanation for voted versus statutory, we're happy to get into that.

I will just hit the highlights for you on the major voted items. They occur on slides 6 and 7. These 11 items listed here cover off roughly 60% of the voted spending in supplementary estimates (B), so it's the vast majority.

The two largest items belong to National Defence. The first item for $652.2 million relates to maintenance dollars for the Chinook, as well as for the frigates, submarines, and armoured vehicles, in addition to some money for some training exercises in the Arctic as well as live fire exercises. The second item on this list is National Defence as well. That's the final payment related to the Manuge settlement. There is $190 million in there. That represents $50 million as a cost of living adjustment, which is the final piece, as well as $140 million to replenish the reserve of the insurance company that had actually floated the funds.

Other things I should mention on this slide—I will not go through the whole list but I'm happy to take questions—are the Treasury Board Secretariat compensation adjustments. These are transfers to departments and agencies for salary adjustments based on the last round of negotiations of $151.7 million.

I'll highlight that for you because we haven't seen that large an amount here for quite some time because of the operating budget freeze that was in effect. Under the operating budget freeze, departments had to resource any salary increases out of their existing reference levels. The freeze was not in effect for the fiscal year 2013-14, so we are resourcing departments for any of the wage increases that were negotiated during that year. That comes into their reference levels for the current fiscal year.

There are a number of agreements in there, but basically $112 million is for the core public service, and $40 million is for separate agencies. The agreements there are everything from correctional officers to financial officers, ship repair—east and west—so there's quite a list in there.

I'll highlight VIA Rail for you, and the rebuilding and enhancing of passenger cars, tracks, and signalling systems.

On slide 7, I will highlight a couple of others for you.

At the top of the list is the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority. That's for implementation of enhanced non-passenger screening. This is for airport staff, airline staff, and baggage handlers, etc., to improve the screening of those types of people. There's money in there for that.

In the second item on this list we have nine organizations receiving funding for management and remediation of federal contaminated sites, which is an item we've talked about here before. There is $80.2 million there.

Canadian Heritage is receiving some funding related to the Pan American and Parapan American Games. There is funding of $65 million for three venues that are being constructed.

Parks Canada is receiving some funding for improvements to highways, bridges, and dams. I will highlight for you the Crowe Bay dam as well as the highway in Glacier National Park. There are other initiatives there as well.

On slides 8 and 9 are initiatives where multiple departments are receiving funding.

The first one, which we've already spoken about, is with regard to federal contaminated sites.

The second item on this list you have seen before, which is the first nations water and wastewater action plan. Both the Department of Health and the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development are receiving funds.

I'll skip down to Statistics Canada because there's a bit of a theme here. This is funding for Statistics Canada, which is the fourth one on the list, to develop and test the questions for the upcoming census in 2016. StatsCan is receiving money as is Shared Services Canada because it is receiving funds for the IT backbone that will go with the census.

You will see other items on this list where there are funds for Shared Services Canada for the IT component of something a department is delivering. On the next page, you will see funding for the CRA for tax measures. Shared Services Canada is getting some IT funding for that as well. Environment Canada is getting some funding for one of their computers. Shared Services Canada is getting some funding for that as well. That's a bit of an emerging theme.

On slide 9, I will highlight one horizontal item for you. Halfway down the page is the Canadian Food Inspection Agency's new preventive food safety program for fresh fruit and vegetables, as well as enhanced oversight of fish and seafood. This funding is largely because of the changing purchasing patterns of consumers—increased purchasing of packaged foods, new markets, more of a trend towards fresh fruit and vegetables, as well as some seafood products. So some new dollars have been added in here for a new program to oversee food safety.

Slide 10 is statutory expenditures. These are expenditures for which the finance department updates it's forecast periodically. These expenditures are not voted on by Parliament as part of the estimates process, but we do provide the changes for information purposes. I'll highlight a couple of them for you here.

The payment to the International Development Association of $441.6 million is a replacement for a program that we used to deliver through a demand note. Now we are providing funding up front with a cheque. These are loans to the poorest countries of the world that are given concessionary or low interest or zero interest terms. We are changing the way we deliver it. Rather than a demand note, we are flowing some funds directly.

The other two items I will highlight for you are the decreases on the bottom.

We've spoken about this before, the interest costs; this brings the forecast in line with the latest forecast from the Department of Finance. The decreased interest costs of $329.7 million, this largely relates to changes in the forecast for the long-term interest rates which are continuing to be low.

The second one is a reduction in the forecast for disbursements to provinces under the softwood lumber agreement: $80 million. That's worth noting because it brings the current year forecast down to zero. The forecast for those payments is very much tied to the health of the U.S. housing market. If the U.S. housing market is going well, lumber prices stay up, and payments here are reduced or nil. The forecast here based on the latest economic data is that there will be no payments required in the current fiscal year.

In summary, there are $2.9 billion in budgetary voted expenditures for 63 organizations. Eventually, Parliament will be asked to vote on the appropriation bill.

I have one final plea before we get to questions. If your question does pertain to a specific page in the estimates document, and you can give us the page number so we can find the equivalent version in English or French to allow all members to follow along, that would be very much appreciated.

With that, Mr. Chair, we're happy to take questions.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Matthews. I am sorry that this will be your last presentation to the committee, but I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you on your appointment.

We look forward to welcoming your replacement.

Let us move directly to Mr. Ravignat, for five minutes.

November 20th, 2014 / 9 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to add my congratulations to you for being named Comptroller General. Good luck in the future in that role.

One of the fundamental ways that government has to report to parliamentarians is through this estimates process. I have to say that I'm rather disappointed with the level of detail that we've received, particularly with regard to the defence additions. We're talking about $652 million, and it would seem that that's going to a number of things, including towards implementation of the Canada First defence strategy.

In a time of what is war, you would expect that maybe some of these estimates would be tied to current operations. Could you confirm whether or not any of that $652 million will be used for operations in Iraq currently?

9 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Bill Matthews

I'll give you a bit of background. If you think about the timing of supplementary estimates (B), these were largely put together before the decision was made for Canada to go and participate in the current initiative that's happening related to ISIS. So are there any direct dollars in here related to that operation? No. That being said, the way departments are funded, they do get a vote for operating expenses and a vote for capital expenses. If there is a need for National Defence to move funds around within those envelopes to support..., they are free to do so because they are controlled at a vote level.

To directly answer your question, is there any incremental funding specifically for that initiative in these estimates? No, there is not.

9 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Okay.

According to the estimates, the funds will mostly be used for incremental operational and sustainment requirements of Chinook 147 helicopters, fleet maintenance of submarines, frigates, aircraft, and so on.

I am wondering about the operational condition of each of Canada's four submarines. What is the connection between this amount and the maintenance of the submarine fleet?

9 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Bill Matthews

Thank you for the question.

Again, it gets back to how National Defence and all departments operate the budget. They're given a bulk number for operating dollars and they're free to spend that amount, whether for submarine or for frigates. But we are very much into maintenance dollars here.

Concerning the condition of the submarines themselves, can I speak to whether we're going to get five more years? I can't speak to that. That's actually a better question for the Department of National Defence in terms of their plans.

You and members will be well aware that there have been significant investments over the years in those submarines to get them ready for seaworthiness. I believe there is one that is still being worked on significantly, and the other one, I believe, has been put out for some trial runs.

But it's best to ask those questions to National Defence itself.

9 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Okay.

Which part of the extra amount being requested will go to personnel training and support?

9:05 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Bill Matthews

I don't know whether I have that breakdown specifically, but maybe my colleague has.

No, she hasn't.

It's a gross amount here. The priorities are Chinooks, frigates, armoured patrol vehicles, and then the two training exercises that I highlighted, although there is additional training in there as well, but I can't give you the split among the various initiatives.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

I imagine it is something we could ask you for.

9:05 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Bill Matthews

Yes, if the committee is interested, we could certainly follow up on that with the department.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

I also saw that, in Veterans Affairs, 70% of the additional amount the government is requesting will go for advertising. There will be only $1.9 million more for the funeral and burial program, to which accessibility is still a problem. I do not see the logic in that at all.

What are they going to advertise with 70% of the money they are asking for?

9:05 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Bill Matthews

As the member has mentioned, there is funding in here for advertising related to Veterans Affairs. This funding will be targeted towards raising awareness of Veterans Affairs programs.

If you think about the way Veterans Affairs funding is organized, you will note that they basically get funding for grants and contributions, which includes the programs themselves to the vets, as well as funding for operational dollars. The spending on grants and contributions is very much driven by the benefits as well as the number of applicants you get for those benefits. These advertising dollars are aimed at raising awareness among the veterans of the programs that are available; that's the plan for those dollars.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you, Mr. Matthews and Mr. Ravignat.

The floor now goes to Mr. Trottier, for five minutes.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Matthews, congratulations once again on your new role and all the fine work you've been doing over the years with the Treasury Board Secretariat.

You gave a very broad overview of spending within all of government, not just the Treasury Board Secretariat. As much as I'd like to plunge into some details, I just want to talk about the longer-term trend.

When we studied the estimates process a couple of years ago, we talked about its being effective for us to look at the longer-term trend rather than the quarter-by-quarter or even one-year results. At roughly the same time as the supplementary estimates (B) we have the departmental performance reports. I want to ask you some questions about the departmental performance reports, because we can look at the annual trend.

In the actual expenditures just within the Treasury Board Secretariat, we see some significant reductions in spending. In the categories of management frameworks, people management, expenditure management, and financial management, we see year-over-year decreases in each of the four categories.

Could you talk about some of the initiatives within the Treasury Board Secretariat to reduce those expenditures?

There's one item for which we see the costs increasing, but I'll ask you that question later.

Just in those four categories, why were the costs decreasing fairly significantly year over year?

9:05 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Bill Matthews

For members who may have brought the departmental performance reports with them, and I don't know if they have, I think you're probably looking at page 8 of the DPR. You're right; we did provide the overview of the government as a whole and that's our primary role. Then we'll speak briefly to the Treasury Board Secretariat as a department, which is what the question pertains to.

The Treasury Board Secretariat is largely a policy shop offering advice and guidance in terms of things like financial management policy and people management policy. Those reductions are largely around consolidating some of the ways we offer policy advice. We've done some restructuring to streamline our policy advice function. There were some programs that were sunsetting, so we had temporary funding that has dropped. Sunsetting means that they ran their course and they were limited. That's the bulk of it.

The only other thing I should highlight for you—and you've touched on the major functions of the Treasury Board Secretariat; it is a funny department in that it also has these things called central votes, which are for government-wide purposes—and that's the second-last bit you'll see on that page. Those numbers are largely things like the payroll I mentioned and government-wide contingencies, and they can fluctuate from year to year. I don't get too fussed about the ups and downs in terms of those fundings because they are government-wide in nature.

You touched on the major themes. It's been across-the-board decisions to, as I mentioned, sunset funding that was winding down, as well as consolidating some of our processes to carry out our functions more efficiently.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

In the last item in the departmental performance report of government-wide funds and public service employer payments we saw an increase from $2.19 billion in 2011-12 to $2.5 billion in 2012-13. The actuals in 2013-14 were $2.63 billion. Is that because of other departments requesting increased payments for salary adjustments?

9:10 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Bill Matthews

That's part of it, those essential votes. I'll just run through them because we don't bump into them a lot

There's something called vote 5 that is government-wide contingencies. It was, if I recall correctly, not used at all last year, so the whole amount lapsed. That's fine. That's only there if we need it.

Vote 10 is government-wide initiatives and it's small money if there's any kind of government-wide initiative we want to fund departments for.

Then you're into compensation adjustments, which is vote 15, and that's the one we spoke about earlier.

Then you have two votes related to departments' abilities to carry forward funds. For operating dollars, departments can carry forward 5% and for capital they can carry forward 20%. The maximum amounts for the whole government are included in those central votes. They're very much based on what requests the departments make.

You have the public sector insurance vote, which is vote 20. Treasury Board Secretariat functions as the employer for the whole of government, so that insurance money is in there.

Last is vote 30, which is the pay list requirements. Those are things like benefits related to maternity, etc., that drive some of our compensation costs.

Those central votes depend on government-wide trends and they're not specific to the operations of the department.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you, Mr. Matthews.

The other important and interesting part of the departmental performance report is the performance indicators. There's one thing about controlling expenses, but you're also obligated to meet certain targets. One of the refreshing things I saw in this year's departmental performance report for the Treasury Board Secretariat is that you missed some targets. To me this is refreshing in the sense that I've looked at some of these reports in the past—not just Treasury Board, but other departments—and they seem to hit 100% of the targets, which suggests the targets weren't aggressive enough in some cases.

I notice there was a target that was missed in this case, just one. Maybe you could comment on it. It was under the area of program 1.3: expenditure management, which is on page 25 of the version of the DPR that I have. It says, “Per cent of organizations whose year-end expenditures are within the targeted range of planned expenditures”, and there's a targeted range of 15%. You had 80% of organizations that would hit those targets, but only 70% did. I'm wondering, what are the consequences when organizations don't hit their expenditure targets? Does this affect variable compensation for deputy ministers or associate deputy ministers, and so on?

9:10 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Bill Matthews

There are a couple of things here. From a parliamentary perspective, departments cannot exceed the amount that Parliament has voted for them. If you have a department that exceeds its votes, there would be significant consequences depending on the reasons why.

In this case this is one of the best practices cases. You've touched on performance measurement, which is a challenge in government. It's a big challenge for central agencies, so we're using this as a proxy to say, “Okay, are we giving departments the right tools and guidance to help them plan and forecast their spending?“ At the end of the day, it's the departments that manage their own budgets, so this is an indicator that we've put out there to help us decide if we're doing enough to help departments or not.

Are there consequences for not being there? No. This is more of a best practice type of thing. Departments take note of it, try and do better, and then we look at ourselves and say,“Okay, are we giving departments the right guidance and tools they need to properly spend their spending?“

9:10 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you, Mr. Trottier.

The floor now goes to Mrs. Day, for five minutes.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks also to the witnesses for joining us today. Their attendance is much appreciated and all too short.

My questions are about VIA Rail. I do not have the appropriate page numbers because I do not have the copy in my hands. So I will let you handle this question. In the future, the people who provide the notes for us could perhaps give us the corresponding page numbers in case we have to refer to them when we ask questions.

For VIA Rail, you have a request for $148.6 million in supplementary adjustments. That new money is intended for projects in 450 communities. These are capital projects like the enhancement of passenger cars, signalling systems and tracks. I will stop at that last point. Does VIA Rail own the tracks in Canada?

9:15 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Bill Matthews

My recollection is that it's actually CP that owns the rails and VIA leases them from CP, so I believe there's a charge there. That's my recollection; VIA is not the owner of the rail track itself.

That being said, this funding goes, as I believe I mentioned earlier, and as you've touched on—

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Excuse me, can you tell me which portion of the $148 million will go to improving the tracks, which, by the way, are in very poor condition?

9:15 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Office of the Comptroller General of Canada

Bill Matthews

As far as I know, this funding is for passenger cars, signalling systems, and things like that. I'm not aware of anything on track. I believe that's outside.... I'm looking to Marcia....