Evidence of meeting #31 for Health in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was privacy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Athana Mentzelopoulos  Director General, Consumer Product Safety Directorate, Department of Health
Robert Ianiro  Director, Consumer Product Safety Bureau, Department of Health
Diane Labelle  General Counsel, Legal Services Unit, Department of Health
Elspeth Gullen  Legal Counsel, Legal Services Unit, Department of Health

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the health committee.

We're very excited about our committee because we work so well together and get a lot done, and I have to commend all the committee members for that.

I would like to welcome Ruby Dhalla. I haven't had a chance to do that. It's a pleasure to have you on committee, Ruby.

Of course, Mr. Dosanjh, I welcomed you before. It's good to see you here.

And we have Glenn Thibeault. Welcome to our committee as well.

And yes, Monsieur Dufour, I never forget you. So there we go. We welcome Monsieur Dufour just on a general basis when he comes in, and we sing Happy Birthday to him on his birthday.

I'd like to welcome the other visitors we have today. From the Department of Health, we have Diane Labelle, Robert Ianiro, and Athana Mentzelopoulos.

Committee members, today we have Bill C-36 before us, and the proposed operational budget in the amount of $15,150 for the committee's study of Bill C-36, an act respecting the safety of consumer products. I put that motion forward to be adopted.

11 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you.

The plan for Bill C-36 is as follows. We had said, as committee members, that when legislation came up we would take the legislation first and foremost and get it done. What we're looking at are witnesses from the department today. On Thursday the minister will join us for an hour and then we'll have witnesses on Thursday. And the following Tuesday we have additional witnesses and then we'll do a clause-by-clause. And we're hoping a week today to get the clause-by-clause completed, basically because there's been a lot of study on Bill C-36 and there are few amendments, so we as a committee have decided this is the way we want to proceed.

We will begin now with a presentation from Athana Mentzelopoulos. How do you pronounce it?

11 a.m.

Athana Mentzelopoulos Director General, Consumer Product Safety Directorate, Department of Health

Athana Mentzelopoulos.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Mentzelopoulos, okay.

We will begin with a seven-minute presentation. Following that, we will go into our questions and answers with the first round.

Please begin.

11 a.m.

Director General, Consumer Product Safety Directorate, Department of Health

Athana Mentzelopoulos

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to appear before you to discuss Bill C-36, the proposed Canada Consumer Product Safety Act.

As you know, the Minister of Health introduced this latest version of the legislation in June of this year. Each generation of this bill has been an improvement over the last and reflects the ongoing approach that we take to consumer product safety; that is, we are always looking for the most effective and efficient ways to maintain consumer safety while at the same time ensuring a free flow of goods.

The free flow of goods is related to the post-market regime for consumer safety in Canada. The post-market regime is not something we are proposing to change with this bill. We do not now propose, nor would we propose, that industry be required to seek certification from or otherwise notify the government when new products are introduced for sale in Canada. However, while the vast majority of consumer products are unregulated in this country, we do have a number of regulations and prohibitions in place for consumer products, and we work to promote compliance. Bill C-36 would provide an important authority in this regard: a general prohibition against products that pose an unreasonable danger to consumers.

Today the Hazardous Products Act is our legislative basis for consumer safety in Canada. It establishes what is essentially a permissive regime, where a product is allowed in Canada unless it is specifically regulated or prohibited. The general prohibition addresses those products that pose an unreasonable danger to human health or safety.

We expect that industry is already using appropriate standards and risk assessment methods in its evaluation of the safety of its consumer products before being placed on the market.

The general prohibition also supports one of the three key areas that we focus on for improvement in consumer product safety, and that is active prevention.

Modernized authorities developed to correspond to our globalized and post-market consumer product environment will assist us in preventing product safety problems before they arise and before significant risk can develop.

In addition to active prevention, we are focused on targeted oversight and rapid response as key areas for improvement in our consumer safety regime. Bill C-36 has new powers requiring manufacturers and importers, upon request by the minister, to provide safety test and study results for their products for verification by Health Canada. This supports targeted oversight while keeping the accountability for safe products with industry.

In addition to record-keeping, the requirement for mandatory reporting of product incidents will help us to respond rapidly when problems develop. Our major trading partners, the United States and the European Union, have already modernized their consumer safety legislation. Bill C-36 would bring Canada in line with them on reporting of incidents and recalls.

While the legislation would modernize a very dated system for consumer safety in Canada, we expect to continue to see a very robust voluntary approach to recall by industry. That has also been the experience in the United States.

We know that the vast majority of industry in Canada acts responsibly and we know they value their reputation. Unfortunately, there are still cases where industry either seeks to dismiss a risk or to avoid accountability. In those cases, government requires the tools to take action to protect consumers. Bill C-36 would give us the authority to do so.

Our partners have been generous. The United States in particular, owing to the similarities in our industry, continues to help us when it is taking action as a result of the mandatory reporting system and corrective action systems it has in place now.

Frequently, recalls initiated in the U.S. are either simultaneous in Canada or are closely timed. Information from the U.S. has helped us in Canada so that we are able to determine the extent, if any, of recalled products that might be present here. We thank our neighbours for this support and we hope to be more equal partners in consumer safety as a result of this legislation.

Like other elements of the Hazardous Products Act, the current schedule of fines and penalties can lead to the impression that the repercussions of product safety lapses are simply a cost of doing business. For example, the maximum fine under the HPA is now set at $1 million. Bill C-36 would raise that to $5 million for some offences or more for offences committed knowingly or recklessly.

The key elements of Bill C-36 I know are familiar to many of you on this committee, but there are some important improvements. Specifically, we have made six changes to the legislation since it was before you last.

The first change is a change to authorities for recall and other orders. Previously these authorities would have been assigned to an inspector. Now the minister is made expressly accountable for the authorities. This change addresses the concerns we have heard from some stakeholders that the critical and important authority of a mandatory recall should rest with senior officials.

We have also made two changes in adjusting the wording around inspectors' powers.

The definition of “storage” is now clear in the legislation and it does not apply to goods stored by individuals for their personal use. We have also removed a clause for inspectors to pass over private property so that the provision no longer includes the phrase “and they are not liable for doing so.”

The fourth change--having listened to the committee during previous hearings on this bill and on others--is an improvement to the wording on the provision for an advisory body meant to clarify what was meant by “public advice”.

Fifth, we responded to concerns on review orders, and the bill sets out a 30-day review period.

And finally, a prohibition on BPA, bisphenol A, in polycarbonate baby bottles has been added, ensuring an ongoing high level of protection for consumers.

In summary, the department believes Bill C-36 will provide the legislative foundation for active prevention, targeted oversight, and rapid response. The legislation offers certainty and transparency for industry. It gives consumers the information they need to make good product choices. It equips the government with new authorities that are calibrated to a global marketplace and a post-market regime. These new authorities are consistent with health and environmental legislation already in place in Canada. And this legislation would bring us into line with the level of protection provided to consumers in the United States and the European Union.

Those are my comments, Madam Chair, and we are prepared to take your questions.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you so much.

We'll now go into the first round. The first round is seven minutes per person for Q and A. We will start with Mr. Dosanjh.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Thank you for being here today, all of you.

Since I come to this rather late and this bill has a long history, I want to ask about what happened in the Senate during the last round. If you know, I'd be happy to hear from you. My question specifically is this. Senator Furey and Senator Banks had introduced some amendments. I'm asking these questions because if we can clarify them here, it might not be held up in the Senate. It might be easier that way.

I don't know what Senator Furey's concerns were. He tells me they were dealt with.

In terms of Senator Banks' concerns, I don't have the information on them, on what they were. Generally speaking, they were that individuals, with respect to disclosure of information, don't have the same protections that businesses or industry might have, where the minister has the discretion and the authority to disclose information.

I'd like you to tell me if you know what Senator Banks had introduced and whether or not that has been dealt with in this. If not, what is the rationale?

11:10 a.m.

Director General, Consumer Product Safety Directorate, Department of Health

Athana Mentzelopoulos

I hesitate to characterize the senator's concerns, but as I understand them, he was concerned, as you say, with the disclosure of personal information.

We imagine, for example--and I'm going to ask Mr. Ianiro to fill in the blanks--a case where we receive a report of an injury of someone as a result of a consumer product. How do we ensure that the personal information is protected?

There is provision in the legislation for being able to use the information if there is a requirement to share it on the basis that we would want to prevent any further injury. We've worked closely, though, with the Privacy Commissioner to ensure that everything we have provided for is consistent with the privacy legislation.

I'll hand it off to Robert.

11:10 a.m.

Robert Ianiro Director, Consumer Product Safety Bureau, Department of Health

Thank you for the question.

The provision in the bill that the senator is likely referring to is clause 15, which deals with personal information. The fact is that we do collect some personal information. This provision allows us to share that personal information when we feel it is necessary to do so to deal with a health and safety issue. The amendments that were being proposed at the Senate would, in some cases if not all cases, potentially force us to collect even more personal information.

There was this notion that we should be providing notice and notification to anyone prior to disclosing the personal information. In some cases, we don't have enough information to re-identify that individual; in some cases, we would actually have to be collecting more information in order to contact them and say that we're disclosing information.

Perhaps of more importance is the fact that we don't see many situations in which sharing of personal information, such as the name of the victim in an incident or the details of the person's address, is required in order for us to carry out our actions to better protect health and safety.

Let me give you a concrete example. If we were to come across an incident relating to a particular children's product, what we would really want to be sharing with other jurisdictions is not details of personal information. Rather, we would say that we have evidence to suggest that there was an issue with product X involving a child of six months, and that we were concerned, and we would ask if they were hearing of anything else that would align or match with what we were hearing.

We really didn't feel that any changes or amendments were required. As I said, we in fact came to the conclusion that there is a possibility that we would actually have to start acquiring more personal information.

Perhaps I can just end with a note that the privacy commissioner's office did review the bill and did give it a pass, a clean bill of health, and there were no issues at all with respect to the collection or the management of personal information. As well, the assistant privacy commissioner did appear before the Senate committee to share her comments in those regards.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Thank you.

I have two brief questions. One, I'm assuming that you may have briefed Senator Banks. If you haven't, maybe you should take the opportunity to do that. That's number one.

Second, I noticed that there is a bit of a difference in the wording in clauses 15 and 17. In clause 15, you can share the information to address a “serious” danger. In clause 17, it has to be “serious and imminent” danger. Can you tell me why there is the distinction between business information, which has to involve serious and imminent danger, and personal information, which has to involve only serious danger?

11:15 a.m.

Director, Consumer Product Safety Bureau, Department of Health

Robert Ianiro

The provisions in clause 17 are for serious and imminent danger, and in those cases we are not required to have confidentiality agreements in place. Those would be situations in which we feel there is obviously something of grave concern that we want to share, and we are required to provide notice within one business day of the disclosure of that information.

With respect to the wording in clause 15 about addressing solely a serious danger, that is consistent with our wording in.... Is it clause 16?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

No. There's--

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Consumer Product Safety Directorate, Department of Health

Athana Mentzelopoulos

I think the distinction in particular is that for clause 17, we are contemplating the release of information to the public, whereas in clause15, we are contemplating the release of information to another government. We are raising the standards somewhat in terms of its being very--

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Clause 15 says that you can disclose information “to a person or a government”.

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Consumer Product Safety Directorate, Department of Health

Athana Mentzelopoulos

It is “to a person or a government that carries out functions relating to the protection of human health or safety”.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Okay. In clause 17, you believe that you might want to share the information with the public at large.

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Consumer Product Safety Directorate, Department of Health

Athana Mentzelopoulos

That's correct, yes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

But why is the qualifier “imminent” not present in clause 15? I mean, you'd want to share it with the government, or the person, if there is an imminent danger.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

I'm sorry, Mr. Dosanjh, you didn't catch my eye.

It's now Monsieur Malo.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank our witnesses for being here with us this morning as part of our first meeting on Bill C-36. Of course, this is not the first meeting that our committee has had regarding the bill because, as you know, we had already studied it once before, but unfortunately, Parliament was prorogued. We therefore have to start all the work over again.

There is the issue of the mail and e-mails that each and every one of us here has received in our offices since our last meeting on the topic, and which deal more particularly with the bill's constitutionality. I imagine that you have also received such comments and concerns.

Can you tell us whether you examined that specific aspect of the bill and whether or not you believe that the bill is constitutionally acceptable?

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Consumer Product Safety Directorate, Department of Health

Athana Mentzelopoulos

I apologize, but for greater clarity, I prefer answering in English.

I believe I know exactly the correspondence you're referring to, and yes, we have analyzed it in considerable detail and the short answer to your question is yes. We believe that we are fully in line.

Did you want to add anything to that?

11:20 a.m.

Diane Labelle General Counsel, Legal Services Unit, Department of Health

As you are well aware, the Minister of Justice is tasked with reviewing each bill in order to ensure that it properly reflects the government's obligations pursuant to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That review was done by the minister and the Department of Justice. Moreover, a bill is also examined to see whether it is well founded, i.e., whether Parliament does indeed have the power to adopt such a bill. In fact, we can confirm that we have conducted such a review and that the bill falls within Parliament's authority regarding criminal matters and properly reflects the government's charter obligations.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC

Very well, I thank you for those points of clarification.

I am sure you know that when the government tabled Bill C-52, which is the previous version of Bill C-36, a number of consumers were concerned that the law could apply to natural health products. An addition, clarification or change was brought. In subsection 4(3), which deals with the application, the following is clearly stated:

4.(3) For greater certainty, this act does not apply to natural health products as defined in subsection 1(1) of the Natural Health Products Regulations made under the Food and Drugs Act.

Can you tell me why, in this case, people today are still concerned by the fact that Bill C-36, the latest version of the act respecting the safety of consumer products, might affect natural health products?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Who would like to answer?

Go ahead.