Evidence of meeting #78 for Health in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was innovations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pascale Lehoux  Canada Research Chair on Innovations in Health, Professor, Department of Health Administration, Université de Montréal
David Jaffray  Head, Radiation Physics Department, Princess Margaret Cancer Centre
Jeffrey Hoch  Director, Cancer Care Ontario, As an Individual
Adam Holbrook  Associate Director, Centre for Policy Research on Science and Technology, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Welcome to committee, everyone.

Welcome, committee members. I have to say that at the end of the meeting we have to go into some unexpected business for 15 minutes. We'll do that at 5:15, so we have a lot of time to get through our agenda here.

We welcome our witnesses. It's most important that you're here today. We're eagerly looking forward to your presentations. We've been studying technological innovation. It has been one of the most exciting and productive things that we've ever done, I think, in the health committee. It has opened up a lot of ideas and a lot of stimulation in our thought.

With us from the university of Montreal we have Dr. Pascale Lehoux.

Welcome. I'm glad that you're here today. I understand that you have a PowerPoint presentation. Is that correct?

3:30 p.m.

Dr. Pascale Lehoux Canada Research Chair on Innovations in Health, Professor, Department of Health Administration, Université de Montréal

Yes. I will speak in French.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

That's great.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Could I make a point of order, Madam Chair, please?

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Sure, go ahead.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you.

I would just like to ask if we could get an update on the minister appearing. I know that the time has pretty well gone for the supplementary estimates, but I do want to make sure that when the minister appears before the committee, we actually have the report on plans and priorities, which is part of the main estimates.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

It's going to be on April 18.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Okay.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

We are going to have business at a quarter after five, too.

That said, Doctor, we will begin with you. You have a 10-minute presentation. Would you like to begin now?

3:30 p.m.

Canada Research Chair on Innovations in Health, Professor, Department of Health Administration, Université de Montréal

Dr. Pascale Lehoux

Madam Chair, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me.

During my presentation, I will ask you to consider three questions. First, what constitutes a good health innovation? Second, where is Canada's health innovation policy headed? Third, could health care system expertise be used to influence innovative businesses?

During my presentation, I will talk about three messages and try to explain a recommendation for the federal government to set up an intersectoral health innovation development body driven by the health portfolio.

Let's begin with the first question. What constitutes a good innovation in the health field?

I assume that the members of the committee already know, based on what they have learned from testimony, that the current challenges in health care funding and delivery are considerable.

Regarding the various dominant visions on technologies, you have probably heard it said that technologies are the beneficial but unpredictable result of the marketing of scientific advances. You may also have heard that the best technologies are necessarily the most expensive ones. I believe a new position should be adopted to preserve the future of care systems by conceptualizing innovation differently. That means focus should be placed on design. I will illustrate that with an example.

Dialysis has been in use since the 1960s and has improved over the years. Today, hospital dialysis uses specialized equipment. There are alarms, and data is gathered in real time and digitalized. However, when patients are asked what they really care about, they say it's treatment length. They are hooked up to the machine three days a week, four hours at a time.

You may wonder how come, although the treatment has been provided since the 1960s, it has only recently become possible to undergo dialysis at home, over night. Only a handful of manufacturers develop dialysis equipment. Those machines allow patients to undergo more regular and mild treatments, follow a less restrictive diet and, most importantly, maintain job ties. That is a key factor when it comes to public health.

The idea is not only to capitalize on technological advances, but also, more importantly, to meet users' needs.

I think it is clear that the current policy challenge is neither to increase the adoption of innovations nor to slow it down. The key question is what makes superior innovation come about and how can innovation policies lead to the development of brilliant innovations while avoiding troublesome failures.

About 50% of innovative projects fail somewhere along the way, very often because those who develop them, in the upstream part of the process, fail to understand the needs of care providers, in the downstream part of the process.

The first message is that, regarding health care systems, technologies should explicitly pursue at least the following three characteristics. First, they should be relevant to the context in which they are used. Second, they should be user-friendly on an organizational level—in other words, they should be easy to use in lighter infrastructures. Third, they should be sustainable and not require overly frequent updates.

Generally speaking, that would help us reduce our dependence on specialized services found only in urban centres, equip front-line physicians to provide their community members with the appropriate care, and act on the social determinants of health.

Let's now discuss the second question. Where is the Canadian innovation support policy headed?

The Jenkins Report, published in 2011, focused on some 60 federal research support programs for industry. It should be pointed out that a large part of our spending—from 70% to 80%—goes into tax credits for businesses.

The illustrated figure on the right gives an idea of how over-represented large businesses are in that program, given that 90% of Canada's industrial fabric is made up of small and medium businesses.

The $6.4-billion envelope is roughly equivalent to the funding for all health R&D in Canada. A closer look at the main sources of funding and places of R&D execution shows how incredibly important the public sector is. The category of post-secondary education in health includes university research centres.

Considering the envelope for R&D and the fact that the government—the public sector as a whole—funds but also purchases innovations, the federal government has important levers to play a structuring role in innovation. That is the second message.

However, a correct distinction must be made between at least two industries: the medical device industry and the biopharmaceutical industry. They are different not only when it comes to economic impacts, but even more so when it comes to their size and structure. The medical device industry is mostly made up of small and medium businesses.

That key distinction was not taken into account in the Jenkins Report. According to that document, the main problem is that commercialization efforts are very unsuccessful across the country. The report suggests the state should provide support to companies so that they can grow, but also do more R&D in co-operation with universities, to potentially create spin-off companies.

However, that type of model depends heavily on venture capital. Those spin-off companies face their first hurdle during the start-up and development phases, which are a key part of the development and innovation process. In our studies, we note that capital investors—and later shareholders—place tremendous pressure on spin-off companies to market products and generate revenues, even though those companies are not always ready for that step. That is to the detriment of clinical users and patients, who are seeing the value of technology rise.

As a result, companies very often end up being sold. According to the data provided by the Conference Board of Canada, about half of Canadian venture capital exits are through foreign acquisitions. So public funds are invested in research and development, our university hospitals are working on innovation development, but in the end, we lose most of the commercialization revenue.

My third message is that businesses should not only design more ingenious innovations, but when it comes to the economy, they should also contribute to job creation and the vitality of Canada's industrial fabric.

Let's now discus the last question. How could health care system expertise be used to positively influence business start-ups early on?

I think some of the difficulties technology developers encounter have to do with what I would refer to as the missing link—represented by the red arrow on the slide. Better alignment is needed between the two value creation models: the technology developer's model and the health care system's model. Expertise is required for that alignment to materialize.

Economic development Canada mainly seeks short-term commercial and financial success. Focus is generally placed on certain sectors rather than on innovation.

When it comes to health, focus is put on quality of care. We have access to a considerable amount of expertise regarding the health care system's needs and challenges. That is what really counts when it comes to designing innovations I have referred to as brilliant or ingenious.

I will now go back to my recommendation to set up an intersectoral health innovation development body that would be driven by the health portfolio. I think this innovation planning and design strategy cannot currently be developed by the industry. None of the portfolios—be it economic development Canada or the Department of Health—can achieve that goal alone.

Thank you for your attention.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you so much for your very insightful presentation. We appreciate it very much. Now we'll go to our next witness, who is Dr. David Jaffray. He is the head of the radiation physics department, Princess Margaret Cancer Centre.

Doctor, you have 10 minutes. We look forward to your presentation.

3:40 p.m.

Dr. David Jaffray Head, Radiation Physics Department, Princess Margaret Cancer Centre

Thank you.

I would like to thank the committee for this opportunity to share my perspective on the challenges of innovating in health care in Canada. I'll begin by introducing myself to the committee—it places my perspectives in context—and will follow with three specific messages I would like to bring to the committee's attention.

I am an employee of the University Health Network. The University Health Network is a $1.7 billion per year health care delivery, education, and research company created through an act of legislation of the Province of Ontario. Some may be more familiar with the names of the hospitals that comprise the UHN, specifically, the Princess Margaret Hospital, the Toronto General Hospital, the Toronto Western Hospital, and recently the Toronto Rehab Institute. It is important to note that this company has about $300 million in a budget for research activity funded through peer-reviewed grants, industry collaborations, and philanthropy.

I am also a professor in the departments of radiation oncology, medical biophysics, and biomedical engineering at the University of Toronto. I trained in physics at the University of Alberta near where I grew up and specialized in the field of medical biophysics at the University of Western Ontario. I worked for eight years in a large academically oriented hospital in the United States.

I'm now responsible for the management of radiation treatment systems for more than half of the cancer patients in the Greater Toronto Area through my work at the Princess Margaret Hospital, the Southlake regional cancer centre, and the Carlo Fidani cancer centre in Mississauga.

I run a peer-review, grant-funded research program and have published over 150 scientific publications with a focus on addressing the challenges of treating cancer with greater precision and efficacy. My team contributes to the scientific literature, but simultaneously we're very active in the domain of medical technology commercialization. I hold a number of patents on novel technologies for cancer treatment, and have impacted hundreds of thousands of patients around the world with these technologies.

As an inventor and innovator in health care I recently led the creation of a new research organization within the UHN, which will resonate with the rest of my comments. This organization is called the Techna Institute.

The mandate of this organization is to bring a deep, tangible understanding of the health care system to the problem of integrating new technologies that promise to improve outcomes and/or bend the cost curve in health care. The board of the University Health Network supported the creation of this institute in response to the ever-accelerating rate of technological development and its anticipated impact on health care performance, best practices, and cost.

We have been formally operating for a period of 18 months and occupy an important niche at the intersection of novel technologies, deep health care know-how—motivation, practice, and process; in fact, the design that was just presented—and commercial activity.

I will begin my three pretty straightforward messages. The first message relates to the great importance of your assignment for this committee. Abraham Maslow, in his 1943 paper, talked about a theory of human motivation and presented a hierarchy of human needs. The first tier addresses physiological needs, and we're seeing, globally, a shift that's delivering on those physiological needs. The next tier is security, and fundamental to that security is health care and maintenance of health.

The rest of the world wants high-quality health care. In fact, it is expected the worldwide health care market will grow from just over $5.7 trillion U.S. today to approximately $20 trillion U.S. by 2030. This can be compared with the global automotive industry, forecast to reach only $1.7 trillion by 2015. Health care is becoming a massive global market.

The topic of innovation in health care in Canada should not be limited to the level of productivity, the cost, and the quality of care delivery to Canadians, but must address Canada’s capabilities to participate in one of the fastest growing high-technology and services markets in the world today. Missing the opportunity to be a competitive player in this massive market would be truly unfortunate given the magnitude of the existing investments in the health care enterprise in Canada. That's message number one: the global impact in terms of the broad market is something that we'll miss if we don't get innovation working well within health care.

My second message relates to a missing but key ingredient in Canadian health care. To put it bluntly, the system lacks an economy of innovation in health care. An economy comes to life when there are incentives and appropriate policies put in place. Our health care institutions are filled with some of the world’s greatest thinkers. Our academic clinicians are respected the world over for their acumen, their integrity, and their preference for evidenced-based practices. The quality of scientific medical research, engineering talent, and infrastructure is arguably world-class. Our multidisciplinary practice approach and patient-centred care philosophies create the opportunity to define the future best practices in medicine.

Given this raw material, what is preventing us from taking a global position in health care innovation and charging confidently into that large global market? What is preventing us from processing this raw material into product? What is preventing us from drawing new technologies into health care to solve problems?

The answer to this problem is not straightforward, but I think it is the problem. If we can build an economy for innovation in health care, then the rest of the pieces will come to life. We could ask many questions to find what kind of solutions would be involved. For example, does the health care system have the mandate to innovate or only to deliver? If it's not going to innovate, who is? If investment is needed, who would invest in that innovation? Where would you invest? Would you invest in a hospital? Is that an appropriate vehicle? What would be the nature of the returns: the savings, the efficiency gains, the quality? What are the incentives: intellectual property, licensing, academic yield?

In 2010-11, the Province of Ontario spent $44.7 billion on health, 40.3% of its total spending on programs. Based on current trends, this share is likely to expand to more than 44% by 2017-18. To think this activity is yielding nothing more than acceptable service is an incredible waste of the remarkable talent base and infrastructure we have created in Canada.

The Institute of Medicine in the United States released its Best Care at Lower Cost: The Path to Continuously Learning Health Care in America report in September 2012. This represents a major shift in thinking in U.S. health care. This combines the existing industry drive of that health care industry with integrated learning. No longer will Canada have the high ground on evidence. An economy of evidence development linked with investment for innovation that is the nature of U.S. health care will be a very difficult competitor in the global health care delivery market. We need to establish an economy of innovation to build Canadian health care.

My third and final message relates to the means by which health care innovation gets stimulated. There has been a lot of effort by our national and provincial research funding agencies to push the traditional academic research community to make their research more translational. This has done a great deal to ensure research grants have well-motivated introductory paragraphs. However, it is not clear that it's the best strategy to ensure discovery science reaches into the complex activities of health care. As pointed out by the previous speakers, process and design are key to bringing technology into health care.

In last week’s Globe and Mail, Dr. Tony Pawson of the Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute in Toronto highlighted the concerns of some of the scientific community with a shift in funding to translational science. He is concerned that it weakens the quality of the basic science, as well as the yield. An alternative approach would be to invest directly in health care innovation that pulls the discoveries into health care as opposed to stimulating scientists to push their innovations into health care when they don't have the skills to do so. Funding directed at health care innovations that synergize with an economy of innovation health care would be more effective. In the current scheme, we run the risk of doing nothing well, undermining our track record of strong basic science, and failing to build an economy of innovation in health care.

In closing, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to present and look forward to responding to any questions you may have.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you very much for your insightful presentation, and we look forward to our question period.

We'll now go to Dr. Jeffrey Hoch. I understand you have a PowerPoint, Doctor.

You have 10 minutes to present, and we look forward to hearing from you.

3:50 p.m.

Dr. Jeffrey Hoch Director, Cancer Care Ontario, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members of the committee, for this opportunity to share with you my observations about the evaluation of innovation in Canada. l'm going to describe a few of my own experiences, and emphasize three main points.

I want to make it clear that my views are my own. They do not necessarily reflect the views of the people with whom I work or the organizations for which I work. Most of my health technology or HTA policy experience has been in the area of cancer drugs. However I feel my observations can be generalized beyond just cancer and beyond just drugs.

My perspective has been influenced by my career as a health economist. In the beginning, I worked as a university professor in an ivy-covered tower. Okay, it wasn't really ivy covered, and it wasn't a tower, but it was a two-storey building far away. I had brushes with relevance, but it wasn't until the second stage of my career, when I got involved in applying health technology assessment or HTA tools in the real world, that I became aware of some of the issues I'd like to share with you today. Currently, I'm working on using these tools that we develop in HTA to help policy advisers, decision-makers, and the system that would implement new innovation.

There are three main points I would like to leave you with today, and they are quite simple. The first one is that there's not enough money to pay for everything people want their health care system to provide. Because there is a scarcity of resources, there is a need to make hard decisions about what will be funded and what won't be. As a result, there is a need for tools to help people with funding recommendations, decisions, and implementation.

The second one is that different stakeholders will have different opinions about what the problem is, and what tools are needed.

The third and last one is that if we decide we are going to facilitate innovation, we must also facilitate the creation and implementation of the tools necessary to handle the subsequent challenges. Before going on a shopping spree, we should build capacity in the area of smart shopping practices.

Three years ago the executive officer of the Ontario public drug programs of the Ministry of Health invited me to present to the Ontario Citizens' Council. They were being asked to provide their views on expensive innovative drugs for rare diseases. My job was to provide some insights from health economics.

To explain to the Citizens' Council why we could not pay for all new drugs, l introduced the analogy of a suitcase. The suitcase is the health care budget, and the contents are the treatments we pay for. Because the suitcase is not infinitely large, we eventually run out of room if we say yes to everything. In fact we would run out of room even if we only said yes just to the products that Health Canada said were safe and effective.

If we want to put something in the suitcase, and it is already full, we have two options. One is to buy more space by increasing taxes or taking money from education or social services. Alternatively we can take something out of the suitcase to make room.

I think the Citizens' Council understood the need to make sure we packed our health care suitcase wisely. To do this you need the right tools that will help you because the capacity to make and use these tools is lacking right now. I'd like you to consider that the need for these tools will be even greater if we hasten the adoption of technology.

Innovative technology faces a variety of reimbursement challenges along the HTA process. After Health Canada decides something is safe and effective, the product can be sold in Canada. However if it's an expensive item like a cancer drug, patient access comes only if someone else pays, for example the Ministry of Health or a hospital.

Based on my experience, I have noticed four key categories. Challenges differ by category and so must the solutions. For example, let's consider an innovative cancer drug. At the national level, the pan-Canadian Oncology Drug Review, or the pCODR, will issue a funding recommendation to provinces based on the clinical and economic evidence, as well as patient input and system feasibility issues. The recommendation is then sent to the provinces, and in some provinces like Ontario, a separate recommendation committee, for example, the Committee to Evaluate Drugs, or the CED, will review the evidence about the cancer drug and make a recommendation.

Provincial committees, like the CED, make their recommendations in a broader context, considering treatments for other diseases. With funding recommendations from both the pCODR and the CED, the executive officer in the Ministry of Health will make a funding decision, perhaps after closed-door negotiations with the manufacturer of the product. Each of these stakeholders in the HTA's ecosystem has their own special set of challenges. Failure to plan with the payers, policy advisers, and policy implementers of innovative health technology is as good as planning to fail.

During your October 18, 2012 meeting, you heard about the success of the pCODR and how it was recommended as a model of how to do HTA nationally. The pCODR was the result of provinces creating a separate HTA process to better serve their needs for cancer drugs. Both patient groups and industry are big supporters of the pCODR. It is the province's process. It was designed for them by them. The pCODR's innovative methods and processes have been admired and adopted by other HTA processes in Canada. I want to echo John Soloninka's testimony that the pCODR's excellent customer service in the field of HTA would be a good starting point to look for success strategies related to how to encourage innovation in a sustainable and accountable way.

As an economist, I would be remiss if I didn't stress the importance of incentives. If we want more innovation, we must create the incentives to encourage it. However, if we create the incentives that lead to greater innovation, we should not be surprised if we get more innovation. It is not enough to encourage companies to create innovative product. We must also make sure the capacity is there for Canadian health care system payers to be able to use HTA to evaluate what they're getting and what they're paying for it. We cannot expect our health care system to be sustainable and accountable if we have underinvested in the capacity to do smart shopping.

Creating more things that we can pack into our healthcare suitcase will not save us from the fact that we still need to choose what we put in and what we leave out. HTA helps decision-makers, policy advisers, and policy implementers with the challenges they face with innovation. HTA will also help patients and physicians who want to know the extent to which a new treatment is better than usual care and how much more it will cost. Applied research in the areas of health economics, services, policy, and ethics creates the evidence for evidence-informed policy decisions. If we're going to invest more in innovation, let's invest in the research we will need to determine its value.

Thanks again for the opportunity to share with you, and I look forward to your questions.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you so much, Dr. Hoch.

We'll now go on to Professor Adam Holbrook, associate director of the Centre for Policy Research on Science and Technology, from Simon Fraser.

4 p.m.

Prof. Adam Holbrook Associate Director, Centre for Policy Research on Science and Technology, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

Madam Chair and committee, thank you very much for inviting me to speak on the evaluation and promotion of innovation.

You've heard from a number of eminent practitioners of innovation and innovation management in the health sector in Canada. As a researcher in innovation and the benefits of R and D programs, I would like to speak on a more theoretical basis perhaps, rather than speaking to the specific examples that have been raised so far.

Innovation is both on the one hand very easy, and on the other hand very hard, to measure and evaluate, regardless of whether we're talking about innovation in the health sector or other sectors. R and D is a subset of innovation. Much of this committee's interest has been focused on how Canada's health care system can be improved through innovation. But let's start with R and D.

R and D is of interest because it is an indicator of innovation. The OECD realized this 50 years ago and that's why we've been measuring R and D expenditures ever since. It's relatively easy to measure the resource inputs for R and D—funding and people—and it's usually possible to quantify the outcomes: academic papers, patents, licences, formalized intellectual property, and other economic benefits. I'll just ask you to bear in mind the simplified definition of R and D, and I'm quoting from the Income Tax Act: R and D is the ”systematic investigation or search that is carried out in a field of science or technology by means of experiment or analysis” to advance scientific knowledge or achieve technological advancement.

Okay. But what about innovation? Innovation is both more flexible, as I said, and also harder to define. According to Schumpeter, innovation can be in one or more of five separate areas: new products, new processes, new forms or methods of organization, production, or new sources of inputs.

While the first two, new products and processes, are the main scope of this committee's work, the other forms of innovation should be part of this discussion. But there are other views. Everett Rogers in his book, Diffusion of Innovations, wrote about the transmission of ideas. For Rogers, innovation is not a single, well-defined change like Schumpeter's catastrophic innovations, but a series of small changes, which add up over time to a significant change. Innovators take ideas developed by inventors, researchers perhaps, and communicate them to the individuals who actually implement them. Thus, there can be three separate players in the adoption of an innovation.

As I said, it's relatively easy to measure the effectiveness of some R and D, and thus the consequent innovations. In the health sector, R and D is usually formalized in patents and licences, codified knowledge that can be bought and sold. But there are even problems looking at this simple model, particularly in terms of evaluation. The knowledge from some research does not generate measurable benefits for decades. How far into the future do we try to measure the cost-benefit of research? Some research generates negative results. These are usually unsaleable. Yet the knowledge of what does not work is often as important as the knowledge of what does work. Furthermore, when a patent or a licence is bought by venture capitalists or whoever, the seller still retains the knowledge of what did not work. That's maybe one of the reasons why larger firms tend to purchase or acquire the firms, rather than simply trying to acquire individual pieces of intellectual property.

Arguably, most research, whether in universities, government, or industry, results in tacit knowledge, the knowledge that is retained in the heads of the researchers. Research is a lifelong learning process, and researchers accumulate knowledge even if periodically they have to divest themselves of specific pieces of knowledge to others who can exploit them, either commercially or non-commercially.

But innovation is trickier. How do you measure the improvement of a product or process? This can be done, but often, again, the benefits accrue over time, not the span of a single fiscal year. Sometimes, as with some research, there are clearly identifiable benefits, but innovation can be incremental with small changes accruing over years, which may or may not have measurable benefits in that period. How does one measure the small day-to-day changes in operating procedures in the hospital, at the end of which year might result in better health outcomes or lower costs? How do you identify which innovation was significant? More importantly, how do we know who was the innovator and reward them appropriately?

Following the Jenkins report, we were asked to carry out a study on knowledge transfer from university-based R and D to the productive sector. There were some interesting results. These are very preliminary, and they're not in any particular order of importance.

First, Canadian university IP, or intellectual property, policies are at best inconsistent. Given that there's no nationwide standard university IP policy, industry is often reluctant to involve universities in R and D projects, since they're uncertain as to what the IP requirements might be, or how long it will take to negotiate an acceptable IP arrangement.

There are many anomalies in these policies. For example, most universities have no policy regarding the IP rights of students, whether graduate or undergraduate students, yet students are an important part of the knowledge production process.

We didn't look at this as part of the study, but I will contrast the IP situation with ethics. There is a relatively consistent national policy on ethics, but even here, ethics approval by one university does not guarantee approval by other members of a research consortium. One of the things that bedevil all researchers, not just health researchers, is the need to get separate ethics approval from each university that's involved.

Another thing that came out of the study is the need for what we call “intermediary” institutions, for want of a better term. Other nations, such as Germany, have institutions that come between industry and the higher education sector, and act as a filtering mechanism. We have a couple in Canada that I can point to—MaRS, whose president you heard from earlier, and FPInnovations—but there are not nearly enough. In Germany there's a whole system, what we collectively call the Fraunhofer institutes, but in fact it is a system that goes under a number of different names. Yet we know that already the Fraunhofer institutes are expanding into Canada and that one institute has already set up in Ontario.

We need to recognize that the principal role of universities is to create human capital. The generation of knowledge for specific purposes should come from somewhere else, perhaps these intermediary institutions.

I don't have the figures for Canada, and indeed I don't believe they exist in Canada, but the Royal Society in the United Kingdom has data that show that less than one-half of 1% of all science Ph.D. graduates ever become tenure-track professors, but 17% of Ph.D. graduates become researchers in industry and 50% of Ph.D. graduates in science enter the workforce in other capacities that are unrelated to science.

The question I would like to leave with the committee is this: who are the innovators, and how do we foster innovation by encouraging innovators?

Innovators are frequently entrepreneurs, and entrepreneurs, by Schumpeterian definition, are innovators. But there are other types of innovators. There are social innovators, people who innovate not for profit but to improve the human condition, such as innovators in not-for-profit organizations.

There's also another category we need to encourage, and that's intrapreneurs, people who work in large organizations such as governments but who are unlikely to receive major economic recognition for their efforts.

Can we train innovators? Arguably, yes, but the average researcher, particularly the average health researcher, has such a long training period that adding to their required program of study would probably be counterproductive. Indeed, some researchers and inventors will never likely make good innovators or entrepreneurs. History is full of examples where inventors never acquired any recognition from their R and D, but where other individuals, innovators, saw the potential of their work and exploited it.

Most university tech-transfer programs struggle to generate enough revenue to maintain their programs. One of the thoughts I would leave you with is that the tech-transfer officer should be encouraged to seek out problems as well as to offer solutions. In other words, they should be pulling ideas in as well as trying to push ideas out. One of the participants in our project referred to this as encouraging R and D “enablers”, and thus, of course, innovation enablers.

What can the committee do? I would suggest it recommend that universities not be pressured to produce codified knowledge—that is, patents and licences—but be encouraged to produce the very best human capital for the nation.

I'd recommend that you consider means to recognize and reward social innovators and intrapreneurs.

I would recommend that universities adopt similar, but not necessarily identical, sets of IP policies, perhaps similar to the way the ethics approval system works but without the consequent need for approval by each institution in succession.

Finally, the policy-makers recommend that this should be a two-way street: encouraging a demand for R and D, as well as looking at the supply of R and D in the health sector, whether directly or through intermediary institutions.

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you very much.

We'll now go into our first round of seven minutes, beginning with Ms. Davies.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Thank you to our guests today for coming.

I do have to say that today I found I had a more difficult time following what you were all saying than I've had in the past. It seemed as if there were so many different issues raised, so I'm kind of asking myself where I begin.

I want to begin here. Last night, I went to a wonderful talk here in Ottawa by Thomas King. Some of you might know him. He's a great storyteller, very often heard on CBC, and has written lots of books. Anyway, he's just written a book called The Inconvenient Indian and it's about the history of Indian people in North America.

He gives this great analogy of what's going on at the Department of Indian Affairs and how the structure is not supportive of what needs to be done. He gave this analogy of two slices of cheese, one of which is a slice of cheddar and can sort of stand up on its own, and the second is Swiss cheese with all the holes in it, and of course you try to stand it up and it just kind of folds over—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

We are going somewhere, aren't we, Ms. Davies?

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

We are going somewhere with this.

It was a great analogy, because he used it to describe what he saw as the problem in that particular field, which is different from what we're talking about today, but it did strike me that in some ways what you are describing is the Swiss-cheese effect, in that we have many good innovations, but do we have the system that holds it together in a coherent way, and even if we do in particular areas, is it national in scale? That's what I kind of get out of what you're saying today, and I hope I'm right.

So to be a bit more specific, Dr. Hoch, you said that we need to evaluate HTA, health technology assessment. That sounded a bit odd to me, we have to evaluate the assessments. No? Okay, I got that wrong.

My question was, what is CADTH's role in that? Is that agency adequate and sufficient to do those evaluations, or are you talking about something beyond that?

Then to Dr. Holbrook, in terms of the intellectual property rights, again I think there are so many questions here, but I know what you're saying about graduate...I mean, who owns this work? I know it's an issue that comes up all the time. Whose responsibility is it in a country like Canada? We have this federation; we have provinces. Certainly when you look at health care, it's provincial delivery, and we're always trying to zero in on what the federal responsibility is to bring about resolutions for some of the issues. I'd really appreciate it if you could give us your perspectives on what the federal role should be in the problems you've identified. I've now just pulled out two, but you had many other examples as well.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Who would like to begin on that one, anyone in particular?

Okay, Doctor, go ahead.

4:10 p.m.

Associate Director, Centre for Policy Research on Science and Technology, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

Prof. Adam Holbrook

Thank you.

Whose responsibility is it for trying to bring together the question of intellectual property?

This was really the same sort of question in relationship to ethics. Ethics is a mixture of social norms, cultural norms, and provincial and federal law. In the end, this was done by a tri-council committee, if I am correct, which issued a set of guidelines but did not impose an actual procedure on each of the universities. So all of the universities follow the tri-council guidelines, but each has its own particular spin on them.

I would argue the same thing should be true for intellectual property. Certainly most graduate students in the health sector—not just the health care sector—are funded one way or another through federal grants, either directly or indirectly, and one of the conditions of these grants, just as for ethics, is that there should be recognition of their intellectual property rights.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Dr. Hoch, can you talk a little bit more about the...I thought I understood you to say that the evaluation of HTAs—

4:15 p.m.

Director, Cancer Care Ontario, As an Individual

Dr. Jeffrey Hoch

I'm sorry, I was a bit nervous.

I wanted to sort of link the notion that HTA was the ability to evaluate what you were getting. For example, if I were going shopping for a car, and I'm not a professor of automobiles, I would need help evaluating what I'm getting and how much it costs, so I would go to Consumer Reports. HTA is like Consumer Reports, and I thought if you're going to spend a lot of money, it would be nice to know what you're getting.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

But aren't we already doing that?