Evidence of meeting #38 for Health in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ends.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Selby  Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health
John Britton  Professor of Epidemiology, University of Nottingham, United Kingdom, UK Centre for Tobacco and Alcohol Studies
Armando Peruga  Program Manager, World Health Organization's Tobacco Free Initiative

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It's 11 o'clock, so we'll get our committee meeting started.

This is the second meeting of our study on e-cigarettes. Today we have two hours of meetings. The first hour is with the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, by video conference, and the second hour is by video conference as well. We'll suspend for a few minutes after the first hour to allow for all the technical needs to be met so that we're ready to go.

We have with us Peter Selby, chief of the addictions program at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health.

Welcome back to the committee. You have 10 minutes or whatever you need. Carry on, sir.

11 a.m.

Dr. Peter Selby Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

First of all, thank you so much. It's an honour and a pleasure to present to this committee again. I am speaking on the use of electronic nicotine delivery devices, commonly known as e-cigarettes.

We have sent some speaker's notes to you. I'm sorry they came at the last minute, but they have been sent.

Very quickly, the title of my presentation is “E-Cigarettes: Disruptive Innovations with Promise and Peril”. I think that's the reason why we need to look at this.

By way of background, I'm a physician who works at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. I specifically focus on the treatment of people with tobacco addiction and am currently also running some studies looking at the use of electronic cigarettes by Canadians.

The big problem is that we are stuck in tobacco control in Canada. For example, cigarettes were actually invented over 150 years ago and the technology hasn't changed that much. What has changed is the ability for tobacco companies to mass produce them and cause lots of harm.

The other reason that we are stuck is that the prevalence of smoking has not budged much in the last five years. Currently, the burden of smoking is borne by people who can least afford to smoke, those who have less than high school education, those who have other comorbidities, like mental health and other addictions. The rest of society has benefited from the existing policies, but there's an inequity that has crept into society where approximately 4.5 million Canadians still use tobacco on a regular basis.

We are stuck. We need new innovations and new ways to address it. We've looked at other mechanisms like education, taxation, and smoke-free by-laws. All of those things have been very useful, including creating treatments for smoking cessation.

However, with the advent of e-cigarettes, or electronic cigarettes, as delivery devices that came onto the market, we began to see great demand by smokers. When you spoke to them, they would say to us, “Well, I'll use it when I can't smoke”. On the other hand, many people were looking at it as a way to get the monkey of combustible tobacco cigarettes off their backs. Again, many people believe that it would be safer and less addictive.

When you look at them, not using a scientific approach but a common sense approach, automatically one can say that they appear to reduce harm and the cost. For example, we know they have lower numbers of particles compared to combustible cigarettes. The risk reduction level is not yet fully known.

On average, definitely, smokers are getting much less chemical exposure than they would from cigarettes. And of course, from a cost perspective, approximately, at least in the U.S., what people can get from one e-cigarette is essentially the equivalent of one to two packs per day. So definitely, it becomes much cheaper for them to use.

However, there are some health risks that are emerging that we need to pay attention to. Whether the e-cigarette contains nicotine or not, there are some problems. They come from the device itself and how it's manufactured. If the battery is faulty, for example, fires can occur. They can overheat, and we've seen some examples of that.

If there isn't any safety coating around the heating element you may be aerosolizing or putting heavy metals into people's lungs. With the newer devices that actually can heat up to higher temperatures we may be actually even creating some cancer causing chemicals that are getting into the person's lungs and body.

The other thing that is the big unknown is the propylene glycol. Although it's generally considered safe in humans, it's not necessarily proven to be safe in this repeated exposure that some people might get. But what we do have are increased cases of poisoning, especially in the U.S., where children have been getting their hands on the nicotine cartridges or refillable cartridges and getting toxicity. Of course, there's the issue of second-hand vapour.

Basically, the studies that have been done to see whether e-cigarettes could be a good smoking cessation alternative similar to the medications for smoking cessation are not as good, or are an equivalent at best. E-cigarettes just cannot compete with cigarettes. The switchover is still not complete because many people will use both cigarettes and e-cigarettes.

I think you are going to hear this metaphor many times from some of my colleagues as well. When both products are on the market, people will go to what they know. So that is one of the problems.

We have had examples in Canada. For example, when we had leaded gasoline and had to move to unleaded gasoline, we had to make some really significant shifts and not have leaded gasoline available at the same time as having unleaded gasoline available. Similar things happened with leaded and unleaded paint. So we have a history of making things safe by removing some toxic chemicals. But you can't have both on the market at the same time.

So the story is not completely told around whether e-cigarettes can be useful to quit smoking when you still have cigarettes available on the market.

The biggest concern we have now, especially in Canada, is that because e-cigarettes not containing nicotine are available in any general store with no age restriction, even my five-year-old could walk up to a store and purchase them and practise smoking without any regulatory framework as to what's in that product or whether it has nicotine or not, contaminations, viruses, or bacteria.... We have no idea what people are getting exposed to. There is no quality control or disclosure of contents and even from the same manufacturer from brand to brand we have no way of knowing what's in that e-cigarette.

Currently I am analyzing an e-cigarette that was bought so-called legally by a patient of a family doctor in our community. That person ended up with headaches, vomiting, nausea, and went to the emergency room where, when they tested him, found that the e-cigarette contained marijuana. We are doing further tests to see if in fact that is true, as we certainly have seen the devices and how they can be manipulated to deliver marijuana instead of nicotine.

So we also have this illogical regulation in Canada where e-cigarettes containing nicotine are not legal, but yet neither are they illegal. So basically we know of people who are using home-grown labs to make nicotine or are importing nicotine and then compounding it and selling it because it's not technically illegal to do that. People are easily converting their devices to use nicotine or marijuana.

What are the challenges and concerns we have? One is that this is potentially introducing youths to nicotine addiction. They are overdosing. The e-cigarettes have flavours and there is advertising for them. Although the U.S. data is comforting in suggesting that e-cigarettes may not be leading kids to go on to full-blown smoking, it is still unclear. There is a great potential for that happening.

The biggest concern currently in the absence of regulation is that we are re-normalizing smoking. So many of you, if you have travelled, may suddenly be surprised to see somebody in a restaurant or an airport lounge “vaping” an e-cigarette. Although it may not results in exposure harm, it is socially harmful because it re-normalizes the act of smoking and makes cigarettes attractive and, therefore, it becomes impossible or very difficult to enforce all the gains that we've made in tobacco-free policies.

The other thing that we've noticed is that it undermines people's efforts to quit smoking, because the attractiveness of this moves them away from approved medications or approaches that have been shown to have benefit towards these issues. I guess the biggest unknown question is the long-term health effects, although from a common-sense approach these would definitely be a lot less than cigarettes. Where the long-term harm might occur is if e-cigarettes become a gateway to people then going on to smoking combustible cigarettes.

If in fact we had a situation where people only used e-cigarettes without going on to other forms of cigarettes, then that would be a different matter. But with the availability of cigarettes and the regulations around cigarettes, the market could certainly get pushed using e-cigarettes as a way of getting a whole new generation of so-called replacement smokers for those who have quit or die off. It becomes very challenging to then have a consistent message to people about tobacco control.

However, having said all that, in the short term I'm going to start off with my eight recommendations that we should think about for the long term and the short term.

In the long term, we have to ask ourselves as a society whether we want to have technology that was developed 150 years ago, that has been proven to kill one-half of its users if used as intended by its manufacturers, to continue to be on the market, or do we owe it to the next generation, when we have a potentially viable alternative because of the development of technology, to study it and look at it as a possible way to replace cigarettes on the market?

We can learn what happened with alcohol prohibition. When that happened, clearly people were using moonshine and all sorts of denatured alcohol and that was causing more harm. But it was only when alcohol was legalized and regulated that we saw a dramatic drop in the poisonings related to alcohol and alcohol-related harm. Can we not do a similar thing with a very dirty, although legal, delivery device such as cigarettes and have better technology, better development of technology? Currently, where e-cigarettes are, they're in the early stages, so there are many ways one could look at e-cigarettes much like the early motorcar. You know, the horseless carriage. With what we have today, we're moving on to “electric cars”, etc., so we can see how this can progress to really help and be of value to society.

What do we need to do so that we can start that process? We need to be able to study these products better. Currently, our regulatory framework is through Health Canada where I, as a researcher wanting to study this, would need to have hundreds of millions of dollars to even start the research study. Forget about doing the research study. If only to show safety data and exposure data in animals--of course, it's extremely difficult to get animals to smoke--we would have to do this because they are fitting it into a frame of other medicines. Clearly, looking at e-cigarettes as medicine is wrong-headed, because we know what happens with medicines; they don't replace cigarettes. It actually promotes tobacco industry products in some sense, because it doesn't replace them.

Can we create a framework that allows an expedited study of these products so we can actually study them legally with nicotine-containing products, and have an integrated approach so we can study it while we are adding to the evidence base in Canada to make better refinements to the product? We need to look at it clearly because of the huge public health nature of smoking.

To this day, we still have approximately the size of the town of Belleville—that's about 35,000 Canadians—dying every year from tobacco-related illnesses. We know that if smokers stop smoking, within a year their risk of dying is reduced by at least half. So we could see some very immediate benefits if we started having people switching over. You'll hear from my colleagues in the U.K. that 7% of the population there has switched exclusively to electronic cigarettes.

We could have some really huge impacts if we had an investment in studying these products in this way, making sure we had products that met quality assurance standards. They would have to meet certain standards for hygiene, cleanliness, and in what they deliver being consistent from product to product, meeting some sort of standard and having some inspectors going in to make sure these were not being manufactured around children, and to make sure that people are wearing masks and are not coughing into the liquids they're preparing, etc.

Immediately, we need to prohibit e-cigarette vaporizing where smoking is prohibited. We have made so many gains in society and to shift backwards would be a shame, because we would lose all the benefits to health care workers and to workers who work in these places by protecting them from being exposed to these compounds. Clearly, we need to have a policy right away that restricts e-cigarettes from minors. If nothing else, how is it possible that a five-year-old could go into a convenience store and buy an electronic cigarette simply because it says it doesn't contain nicotine? When they do studies on electronic cigarettes right now that claim not to have nicotine, they do find traces of nicotine, because their manufacturing practices are not meeting standards. They get contaminated.

What can we do to restrict sales to minors? How do we prevent the advertising?

If you see the advertising of e-cigarettes in the U.S., it is certainly becoming an undermining effort to helping kids stop or not to start. We certainly need to educate people about the risk, especially youth and pregnant women. Most importantly, we need to have a detailed surveillance and monitoring system that can tell us what people are using and what harms they're coming to.

I'll stop now and take any questions.

Thank you very much for your attention.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Thank you very much, Mr. Selby.

First up for seven minutes is Ms. Davies.

October 28th, 2014 / 11:15 a.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, Mr. Selby, thank you so much. You really had a jam-packed presentation there. I was madly taking notes, because your brief hasn't been circulated yet because it did come in late. But hopefully we'll get it later.

First of all, I do want to say thank you to CAMH for coming out with a public, and I think very rational, position on marijuana. I think we have so much evidence to show that prohibition of any substance is very problematic. We basically drive it underground and into organized crime. Regulation is better than no regulation. Regulation is better than chaos. So I very much appreciate the position that CAMH takes from a public policy point of view.

In terms of e-cigarettes, I hear the same approach coming through here, but I just want to get a couple of clarifications from you.

You said earlier that the risk reduction is not yet known. I want to ask you if that includes e-cigarettes that may have nicotine and may not, so it's both sides of the equation?

Secondly, a little bit later on you said something about promising research that points to youth not going on to cigarettes from e-cigarettes. I'm not sure if I heard that right, so if you could just say that again....

Thirdly, if there's time, I'm very interested in your proposition that in the long term we actually need to look at switching or actually prohibiting cigarettes and moving to replace them with something like a new regime under new technology. I just wonder how far away you think we are from that. Is that actually a feasible thing to do? Is it possible to switch people over?

I get the points about research. We need to do the research, We need to look at the long term and the short term. I think these are all excellent points, but could you just clarify the things that I asked about?

11:15 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Yes, thank you so much for your questions. They are important ones.

We at CAMH really try to be the honest brokers around bringing the science to bear to what our recommendations are and point out where there are gaps. So I want to make sure that we are clear about that as well.

Overwhelmingly we recognize that a regulatory framework overall benefits society and the individuals who might be suffering from addictions, because of a framework of understanding addictions as an interaction between somebody's brain behaviour and society.... It's an interactional effect.

Having said that, when we look at e-cigarettes, there are some mixed reports that suggest that young kids experiment. Because they may be subject to market forces, there being these e-cigarettes as starter products and then they are pulled away, much like hard drug dealers use people. They give them drugs for free a little bit, and then they get them hooked. Now, when they get an e-cigarette, they try it out, they like it, and then the next switch is to the cigarette.

Because of the changing landscape, initially e-cigarettes were separate from the tobacco industry. But more and more, e-cigarette markets are now being taken over by the tobacco industry itself. It's a bit confusing as to whether those industries are buying these products off to kill the market, to grow the market, or to have dual markets. It's not clear. I'm not an expert in it, but that's what we observe. When you look at it from that perspective, one has to worry about these vulnerable kids who may be getting pulled in.

On the second hand, the large population-based studies, which are a little older, don't point to the fact that kids are taking on e-cigarettes in any large numbers. That could be because these are population-level surveys and are missing the kids who are at the highest risk in society for taking this up, because they are surveys done at population levels.

Does that make sense?

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Yes, it does.

Can I jump in? When you were saying that we need more study—and you said it's going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars with nicotine—I presume you mean that we need to study both. We need to study what it means to have e-cigarettes with nicotine and without, and what the differences are in terms of health impacts?

11:20 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

That's exactly right. We need to study it from that perspective.

I'm sorry, your third question was...? You had a third question as well.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

I don't know. I've forgotten it myself now.

11:20 a.m.

A voice

If there's a need to replace combustible cigarettes.

11:20 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Oh, yes. How feasible would it be to replace combustible cigarettes.

I think that's an aspirational one. Of course, whenever we talk about changing something...society has been rife with these things. When you want to make a big, bold idea most people want to have the status quo. But with leadership and enough people coming around to it, I think the combination of efforts can lead us to that. I think if we asked Remington in the fifties whether they'd ever see typewriters go obsolete and if they needed to have a different business plan, they never would have agreed to that. Now, you know, I wish you good luck trying to find a typewriter. We've replaced them.

I think things are possible. It depends on how we, as a society, approach it. I don't think it's going to line the medical profession's hand, but I think it's all of society's responsibility to push this agenda forward.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

You still have a few seconds.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Is there much research going on now that you're aware of? We've got one individual who's doing some research on a Ph.D., I think. Is there much research under way now?

11:20 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

To do research in Canada is hard. To do experimental research with the actual product is hard. We can do population trends. We can look at people doing that, absolutely. But trying to do the study where we give one group e-cigarettes with nicotine and one group without nicotine is proving to be very difficult.

Let me tell you how crazy it is right now. I can do the study by giving the person an e-cigarette without nicotine, because that's not under any regulation, but I have to give them the nicotine through the approved nicotine lozenge. As soon as I put that nicotine into the e-cigarette it becomes...under this regulation of the clinical trials application, and then I need my hundreds of millions of dollars to actually get that study even looked at for approval. We have a very bizarre situation right now in Canada to be able to study this.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Okay. Thank you very much.

Ms. Adams, for seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Eve Adams Conservative Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Allow me to preface my comments with the fact that my heart truly is in my childhood hometown of Hamilton, Ontario, today where Corporal Cirillo is being laid to rest. I know that our entire country joins Hamilton in mourning his passing and especially weeping for his very young child, but we are back to work as usual to demonstrate our resiliency here.

Thank you very much for joining us today on this important study on e-cigarettes.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with two recent studies, one published in The Lancet, and one published in Addiction. The study that was published in The Lancet compared both e-cigarettes with nicotine and without nicotine, up against nicotine patches, to see whether or not these were effective smoking cessation tools. While you can't extrapolate based on one study, it seemed to be that a patch was about as effective as these cigarettes. I'm also aware of the study in Addiction that looked to see, in real-world applications of sorts, whether an e-cigarette was an appropriate smoking cessation aid. There were some promising insights there. Those are two that are I'm aware of.

Are you aware of any others?

11:25 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Yes, we're aware of those. Actually, the one in The Lancet was done in New Zealand by someone who is a close colleague of mine. Here's the issue: they can't get the same e-cigarette back because they can't tell, even if it's the same name brand, whether they're getting back the same product. That's one of the challenges.

To answer your question, yes, there are other studies that are looking at whether it can be equivalent to other nicotine replacements or not. That's a line of research that we should do. There's one study out of Italy. There's a colleague of mine in Switzerland who's doing a similar study. There's another group in South Africa that's trying to do the study. There's a huge investment by the FDA for these centres. There's a group out in Buffalo and a group out in Virginia. We are collaborating with the Virginia group as well to see if we can do some collaborative studies, because they can do studies in the U.S. on e-cigarettes that contain nicotine, whereas we cannot. So there may be some experiments—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Eve Adams Conservative Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

If I might ask, based on these studies that you're aware of amongst your colleagues and associates, what are the underlying trends? Is it more of a smoking cessation device or is it a gateway to addiction?

11:25 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Well, I think because of the way the studies are being done right now, most of them are done on recalcitrant smokers or peak smokers who are having difficulty stopping. What is being shown in the naturalistic studies is that in the current framework people are becoming dual users, which means when they can, they smoke cigarettes and when they can't smoke cigarettes they'll use their vapour device. That's the trend that's occurring.

The second thing that we are noticing is that in the short term if you frame it and study it as a medicine to quit smoking, it acts approximately similarly to nicotine replacement, which means that most people who have used that method in the short term will be back smoking within six months. That's where we are struggling with this, and given the current demographic—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Eve Adams Conservative Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

To be fair, that is similar to all sorts of addictions. People need to try over and over and over to beat whatever their addiction might be. Would you not say that's a fair assessment?

11:25 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

I think you're absolutely right that to quit addictions people often need more than one attempt or they may need continuous support to stay off something. Certainly, we've seen that with, for example, prescription opioid users, heroin users. At least 25% of them, if not more, need long-term treatment rather than the short-term treatment we offer them.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Eve Adams Conservative Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Could you comment on the secondhand smoke impact—the aerosol that's being exhaled by the e-cigarette user?

11:25 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

In the studies that have been done to date, depending on the generation of the device, you'll see early e-cigarettes did not generate as much because they didn't reach the temperature. The newer ones, the second generation, tend to generate a lot more of the vape and the aerosolizing of compounds. For the most part, it is nowhere close to what you would get out of a cigarette or an equivalent. But the nicotine in some of them, because they are not regulated, can sometimes spike even higher than what you would get out of a cigarette. The science can only tell you about what is on the market, but that same product today may be very different from the same product a week later. It's shifting. Because of the lack of regulations of this market, we have no idea whether what is true today in what we are studying will be true tomorrow. So you have to take that with a grain of salt.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Eve Adams Conservative Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Are the international jurisdictions regulating tobacco content, and to what levels at this point?

11:25 a.m.

Chief, Addictions Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Dr. Peter Selby

Well, I think you're seeing some variations around whether nicotine content in cigarettes is being regulated. What most people are doing is regulating flavourings or these other things that make cigarettes attractive. So most tobacco-controlled things.... Health Canada, for example, has the manufacturer submit the contents of their product to Health Canada, which cannot share that with anyone because of trademark or privacy rules. So many jurisdictions are trying—