Evidence of meeting #49 for Health in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pmra.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Bennett  National Program Director, Sierra Club Canada Foundation
Bob Friesen  Vice-President, Government Affairs, Chief Executive Officer, Farmers of North America Strategic Agriculture Institute, Farmers of North America
Shannon Coombs  President, Canadian Consumer Specialty Products Association
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Bartholomew Chaplin
Andrew Gage  Staff Counsel, West Coast Environmental Law Association
Lara Tessaro  Staff lawyer, Ecojustice Canada
Maggie MacDonald  Toxic Program Manager, Environmental Defence Canada

5:15 p.m.

Toxic Program Manager, Environmental Defence Canada

Maggie MacDonald

First, if I may, I'd like to speak to the issue of the written commentary regarding the process. The invitations to appear before the committee—much appreciated invitations to have the opportunity to be a witness—were received with only a few days' notice, which makes it difficult to submit within the recommended time period to have the translation done for the committee. I wanted to comment on that, because it's out of no disrespect that we were slow with our comments, and we really appreciate having these invitations.

We're aware of some of the processes that were mentioned, but there is a concern about having products continue to be on the market while more years of study are conducted. It's problematic when exposure increases while we wait for more data. That would be my remark.

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Staff lawyer, Ecojustice Canada

Lara Tessaro

I would just add that, yes, we've been following the Senate proceedings, and some of the information I've provided around the very high proportion of conditionally registered pesticides that are neonics was information that I got from the testimony of the current Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development before the Senate committee. We do follow those other proceedings very closely.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

Have you presented to the Senate committee as well?

5:20 p.m.

Staff lawyer, Ecojustice Canada

Lara Tessaro

We did not get that invitation, but I would welcome the opportunity.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

Is that it for time? If we get a chance, I'd like to ask more questions.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Okay. Very good.

Also, just to defend our quality analysts and clerks, they aren't to be blamed for the late invitation. I know that you weren't doing that, but just in case anybody thought that, we asked for witnesses in December and received them in late January. They're doing the best job they can with the time allocated, and that's why your invitations came when they did.

We're moving right along here, and we are running up on time, so go ahead, Ms. Fry, for seven minutes.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Thank you very much.

I just wanted to clarify some things.

I think it's interesting that you asked for physicians to be involved in this, because if you're talking about human health, it is something that I think physicians should have a say in.

When a drug is being considered for the market—and the best example, of course, is thalidomide—and it fulfills all the requirements and answers all the questions correctly—like neonicotinoids are doing—then everyone says it can go on. The thing about trials is that they are done on only a small group of people, on certain cohorts, and once they hit the general population—or, in the case of pesticides, the general environment and diversity of environment—in vivo, so to speak, certain things occur that did not occur in a controlled setting. When you are in vivo, you see what is happening and what did not happen in vitro. So you have to be able to track adverse effects.

Is the department doing a good job of tracking adverse effects? I heard from Mr. Gage that of course they're not doing any tracking of it in workers, but are they doing any tracking in, for instance, an area that says it is having trouble, in which bees are dying out when that's not happening elsewhere in Canada? We will want to track the specifics that are creating this problem in order to decide whether an adverse effect is actually applicable to a particular drug.

I want to know if this happens, because pesticides are a huge part of the food chain and what we eat and how we live, so they have a direct impact on human health. I'm not even talking about the environment right now, but as far as the environment goes, we see impacts on insects. The ecosystem gets disrupted. It is important for us to ensure that this is being tracked. What we call adverse reporting will come up after the particular drug or, in this case, pesticide has been out there for a while. Is that happening?

5:20 p.m.

Staff lawyer, Ecojustice Canada

Lara Tessaro

The legislation doesn't actually envision an ongoing monitoring role for the agency. It obligates registrants to submit reports. There is also, as I'm sure committee members are aware, incident reporting. I'm not exaggerating when I say people die, because there have been incidents reported of people having serious illnesses related to pesticide use. But those are really the only key mechanisms unless you get into the world of the enforcement mechanisms such as inspection, etc. Right now there isn't any part of the act that contemplates an ongoing monitoring role.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

I realize that.

So then should this be part of the act? What is the point? If you don't track the risks or the adverse effects of anything, whether it's a food, a drug, a pesticide, or whatever, which gets into food, how do you know if a thing is safe or not?

It just seems to me a common-sense question to ask, and I'm just wondering if you have a common-sense answer to it.

Should this be something we look at putting into the act? Is this piece needed to strengthen the act?

5:25 p.m.

Staff lawyer, Ecojustice Canada

Lara Tessaro

I haven't really turned my mind to this in any depth before. As you're aware, there are obviously re-evaluation requirements. As new information comes to light from other jurisdictions or from within Canada, the act happily does provide mechanisms to ensure that as we learn more, as scientific knowledge increases, we have the ability to go back and review again. A special review mechanism is probably the most public-friendly version of all of those mechanisms, because the public has the right to ask for it.

Andrew.

5:25 p.m.

Staff Counsel, West Coast Environmental Law Association

Andrew Gage

I think you're quite correct that no one is in the field looking for this.

The other thing is, as you mentioned, the data isn't there outside of the PMRA itself for people to really realize that the effects they are seeing are actually linked to pesticides. I spoke about data being available in, for example, California. If they start seeing fish die off, they can find out that there was a particular pesticide used in that area in fairly significant quantities, and those connections can be made. If the data isn't actually available, then the provincial conservation officer who has observed a die-off has no basis for knowing that those pesticides might even be in play. So we miss opportunities to make those types of connections.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Can we add that in some way or incorporate that into the act in some way?

5:25 p.m.

Staff Counsel, West Coast Environmental Law Association

Andrew Gage

My suggestion is that you consider requiring the PMRA to collect more information from the registrants on what they sold where, which is not a perfect surrogate for where it's being used, but it's not bad, and that the information be made available in this era of online open data. That is a tool that's been used very impressively in a number of U.S. states.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Even if you don't do the work here and the data isn't online here, but another jurisdiction shows.... I'm back again to thalidomide. The United States did not accept it and didn't use it, but we had this information available. Some countries withdrew and recalled the drug sooner rather than later because they had better information.

Shouldn't we be sharing our information? I know everyone is going to say that the geography is different and everything is different. That's not the point. It raises the question: if the EU is saying that it thinks this is a problem, should that create an investigation in Canada? Shouldn't we be looking at that here without just passing it off and saying that it's a different part of the world and it doesn't apply?

5:25 p.m.

Staff lawyer, Ecojustice Canada

Lara Tessaro

In fact, the EU has made some very important decisions banning certain neonic pesticides. We're saying exactly that: we should be taking a really hard look. It's not that the data on which those decisions in Europe were based isn't available. So far, only one Canadian jurisdiction, Ontario, has expressed an interest in acting on that.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

I know you're saying that, but what I'm asking is this: shouldn't this be a requirement of the act?

5:25 p.m.

Staff lawyer, Ecojustice Canada

Lara Tessaro

Honestly, I haven't.... It's a good debate. It raises a good question, but I haven't turned my mind to this. I would have to think about that more.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Thank you.

I'm going to give this side a quick question and then we'll wrap up the meeting.

February 5th, 2015 / 5:25 p.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I apologize that the time is so short. It seemed to fly by, didn't it?

Mr. Gage, I thought you raised a very good point that we hadn't heard from others, and that is the assumption about labels, which is that they'll be followed. I want you to know that your point was noted. Challenging assumptions is what science is all about, isn't it? Thank you for raising that point.

I want to raise quickly the question about the precautionary principle, because I think I heard a different range of perspectives on what that actually means. What we heard from the earlier witness from the Sierra Club, Mr. Bennett, I think was almost an absolute: that if we don't have all the science and all the potential impacts, we shouldn't approve it. I don't know whether we ever have all the science on everything.

I heard a little bit of a different take from some of the witnesses at the table here. I know that we want maximum information, and my take on it is that this is the purpose of conditional licensing: when new information becomes available, they can respond quicker. Your objection is that it's not happening, I gather.

5:30 p.m.

Staff lawyer, Ecojustice Canada

Lara Tessaro

I'm itching to answer this question. The precautionary principle only applies as a matter of law where a certain threshold is reached. This is codified in numerous international conventions. It's where there's a risk of serious irreparable harm; it's not every single time if every scrap of data isn't there or we can't act. In the context of neonics and admitted critical data gaps about toxicity impacts on bees, we would say that threshold was reached.

I also wanted to make one point of distinction between our views and those of the Sierra Club on the precautionary principle. Maybe it's a point that only an environmental litigator would love, but in our view, the agency is already legally required to make its registration decisions consistent with the precautionary principle. We say that's the case as a result of the Supreme Court of Canada's decision in the Hudson and Spraytech case a decade ago.

While we don't disagree that maybe including an umbrella reference to the precautionary principle in the act would be appropriate, we would view that simply as a codification of the existing state of affairs.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Thank you very much.

We've had a two-hour meeting and then a few minutes over.

Thank you to everybody who has come in to be a witness. We're going to conclude our meeting.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Is this the time, Ms. Adams, where I should make that housekeeping motion that you suggested I defer until now?

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Eve Adams Conservative Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Sure.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

May I?

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb

Did you already read the motion?