Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 17th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'd like to call the meeting to order, please. I'll give a couple of seconds for the men carrying cameras to sit down.

We welcome you all back to our meeting. We're here pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, March 9, 2011, on a question of privilege relating to the finance committee.

Happy St. Patrick's Day to everyone.

We have been successful, after asking late in the day, in having Minister Toews and Minister Nicholson come back and spend another hour with us, but I'm to tell you that they have only an hour. At 11 o'clock we'll need to release them, and we'll move on to what then is the rest of our schedule.

We had a very rough time yesterday during questioning of witnesses, not only these witnesses but all witnesses, so I'll ask the members of the committee to be sure to ask fairly short and succinct questions through the chair, not to the witnesses. We won't then get into the banter back and forth and we'll be able to do the translation on a much smoother basis. So let's please work from that. We'll get more questions answered and we'll all be wiser because of it.

Ministers, do you have any opening statements today? Nothing.

Mr. Brison, I take it you're up first for seven minutes.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Ministers, yesterday you continued misleading and showing contempt for this committee. Minister Toews, yesterday you denied ever saying that Bill C-25 would cost $90 million. In fact, I have a Tuesday, April 27, Canadian Press article that appeared in the Globe and Mail, where you say specifically--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Brison, I'm going to interrupt you right from the beginning, and I'll speak slower this time. When you're asking questions of the witnesses, you're to ask them through the chair. Don't talk directly to the witnesses. This is where we get into the trouble with the back and forth.

All right. Let's try again.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Chair, yesterday Minister Toews continued to mislead this committee when he denied ever saying that Bill C-25 would only cost $90 million. In fact, Minister Toews said on April 27, 2010, in a Canadian Press article, which appeared in the Globe and Mail, and I quote:

We're not exactly sure how much it will cost. There are some low estimates, and some that would see more spent--not more than $90 million.

After that, Mr. Chair, the Parliamentary Budget Officer in fact reported that the real cost of Bill C-25 would be from $10 billion to $13 billion, based on the information he had been provided. Minister Toews revised his numbers to $2.1 billion.

In fact, if you look at it, Mr. Chair, Minister Toews initially said $90 million. The figure from his department ultimately was $2.1 billion, a twenty-fold increase. So based on his numbers yesterday of estimates of $640 million, we can expect costs of perhaps $14 billion, based on the ratio of truth to fiction in his typical numbers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Let Minister Toews answer your question.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

No, I actually...Mr. Chair--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Minister of Public Safety]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to respond—

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Chair, I have not finished my question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Brison, it was on a motion from you that we brought the ministers here today to hear more from them. When a question is asked, I'm going to allow the witnesses to answer it, and then we're going to go back to another question.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Chair, I did not ask a question yet. I have questions for the ministers, but I'm going to finish my opening statement before those questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You see, the ministers get opening statements. They've turned that down. You get to ask questions.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

You can't make this up as you go.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Perhaps I missed it, but in looking over the 18 bills that are the subject of today's discussions and the motion that was brought before us, Bill C-25 is not one of them. Am I wrong on this?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I was going to get to that one if I had to, but it isn't in the point of reference before us today.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

It establishes credibility or lack thereof from the minister in terms of his projections.

Mr. Chair, the minister—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Brison, when I start talking I will ask you to respect the chair.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I'll ask you to respect me as a member—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I certainly will.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

—and allow me to complete this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Then let me finish. I had a point of order. I'll rule on that.

Are you stepping in?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

The point of order is not substantive because the reality is that this information that I'm providing today, in response to a question for the minister yesterday, helps to establish whether or not this minister provides meaningful and important data, or not, to this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Brison, I'd love to have you go back to your questions and ask questions and get answers from the ministers.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

It was on a motion of yours that we brought them back today for another hour.