Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 17th, 2011

[Johanne Denis]

No, we weren't.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's interesting. Why not, do you think? Is that normal?

[Wayne Smith]

I can't answer that question.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Let me ask, is it unusual?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

David, I will let you come back in the next round. Your time is done on this one.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

All right, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Mr. Smith. I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Monsieur Dion, good to have you here today. You have seven minutes.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to all three of you.

First of all, I would like to go back to a question posed by my colleague.

In previous bills presented by the same government, I believe that it was felt that this change was not appropriate. You were not consulted about which would be the best method to use, correct?

[Wayne Smith]

The only thing that I can state is that none of the three individuals present here today have any recollection of such a consultation taking place. I cannot, however, categorically state that this never did occur.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Fine.

This time, however, the minister or the government asked you which would be the best method. Is that the question you were asked?

[Wayne Smith]

Basically, we worked with the Privy Council Office. Representatives from this office asked us to make some presentations on the differences between census data and population estimate data, so that they could have a better understanding of the differences and establish which data was the most accurate.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

You told them, in your conclusion, that preliminary post-census estimates were the most accurate.

[Wayne Smith]

We provided them with information that led to such a conclusion.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Fine.

Are you comfortable with the fact that we are now using preliminary post-census estimates rather than census data?

[Wayne Smith]

Yes, absolutely.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

All right.

The issue we are discussing is very important because that could make a difference of a few seats for each province, depending on which method is used. You are saying that in determining the proportion to be given to each province, you're going to be using the most accurate method, under the circumstances; but when it comes to the number of seats within these provinces, how are you going to proceed?

[Wayne Smith]

As I mentioned in my presentation, we do not have adjusted estimates, however, the proportional discrepancy is the same, in theory, for the entire province. The committees that will be examining this issue will have no other choice but to use the unadjusted census data, as there are no other available options. Indeed, we do not have adjusted data for every town, city or row of houses.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

So we are using method B within each province, and method A for everything that is—

[Wayne Smith]

—for the breakdown between the provinces.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Will we not have problems when we have to decide on seat distribution within each province if we use two methods and switch back and forth between the two?

[Wayne Smith]

We may have problems when it comes to fairness within the province. The net under-coverage is not the same in a rural riding, where it normally is quite small, as compared to a large metropolitan area such as Toronto. Obviously, there is going to be a net undercoverage discrepancy between these two locations. If we try to establish ridings with the same populations, the urban centre will be at a disadvantage.

In reality, there are no other options. There is no data available, but there is for the provinces and the territories.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Pardon me, but you are in fact saying that we're going to be working from an estimate of the total population of a province when we have to compare the provinces with each other, but that this number will disappear when we start distributing seats within the province? We're going to take the figure obtained using method B and not obtained using method A when it comes to the total?

[An hon. member]

Yes, that is correct.

[Wayne Smith]

Essentially, you are right, but this does not come under my purview. I cannot speak on behalf of—

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Yes, it is under your purview, and I want to know if this creates a problem as far as the method is concerned.