Evidence of meeting #18 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

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On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

March 4th, 2014 / 3:55 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

On the same point of order—Mr. Lukiwski opened the door here—there's an inexorable link between the merits of the bill and the importance that Canadians have good access to having input into the bill. We've had this debate at the liaison committee when talking about funding committee travel. Personal presentation at a committee weighs far more than a teleconference or a mail-it-in. So even for those who may be offered the opportunity to teleconference, on something as important as this bill.... I think my colleague is trying to demonstrate just how terribly important this bill is and how it weighs more than other bills do in that it deals with such a fundamental cornerstone of our democracy. It's all the more important that people should be able to make their case in person before warm bodies.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Martin, you're debating on behalf of your colleague, and I'll thank you for it, but we'll go back to the motion.

Mr. Christopherson, speak on your motion.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I was giving in a roundabout way—relevant, but roundabout, I admit—the importance of expert testimony, particularly as it relates to the potential for certain Canadians to effectively lose their right to vote. That's why one of the groups we would consider bringing in would be the London Homeless Coalition and the London Community Advocates Network.They represent a broad range of individuals and organizations concerned about poverty in London in Middlesex. They wrote—it's a letter—to us to express their desire that the committee.... I'll read it, “We are writing to express our desire that the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs (PROC) hold cross-country hearings in order to adequately consult with Canadians on the impact of Bill C-23”.

We will be asking experts like this to give testimony as to how it would impact on groups of Canadians they work with. But they also go out of their way—as experts in the field of governance and civil society and having the opportunity to say something—to ask this committee to hold hearings. This is not just an opposition idea. This is something that Canadians want.

The London Homeless Coalition have taken the time and the effort to write to us. They would be prepared to make submissions, I'm sure, and they're putting their reputation on the line calling for this committee to travel, to get outside the bubble. If I may, Chair, in finishing with this I would just note that it's signed by Mike Laliberte and Jacqueline Thompson, who are the co-chairs of the London Community Advocates Network, and Abe Oudshoorn, who is the chair of the London Homeless Coalition, who is also an assistant professor at the school of nursing. That's the kind of group, Chair, we would want to bring in when we make reference in our first bullet point to hearing from witnesses. I think it's interesting to note that in their expert opinion it was worth their mentioning that they think the committee should travel too. That's what it's coming down to, but I'll get to that part in a moment.

We know that Leadnow is a strong advocate for reform of our election laws. They were here. I will not repeat any of that. However, I do have the—I'm being handed the same thing but with grammatical changes just to make it.... That's all that was. So I will not repeat the 54,000 signatures they had, the news conference they had, and everything I said about that, and they're running ads and everything. I won't mention any of that anymore.

But what I do want to mention is that they have issued a new statement dated March 4. This is a statement from Adam Shedletzky. You will remember Mr. Shedletzky was here. He chaired the news conference that Leadnow held just before we had one of our meetings. This is his statement on the necessity of a cross-country tour to give Canadians an adequate opportunity to learn about the bill. It includes statements from real Canadians. I'm going to read that in just one moment.

But I wanted to underscore the fact that with so many experts available to us we are not necessarily confined to Tuesdays and Thursdays in terms of when we meet. The committee is master of its own destiny and we could easily be meeting every day. Some committees have. I know Finance got into a couple of situations where I think they were meeting day and night for two weeks straight. Time is running and when we started we were in February and now we're in March. I get all of that. We still have ample time to do everything that's necessary if the committee really wants to do it.

That's the question. Is there the political will? There is in the minority opposition benches. We don't think so much in the government benches. That's why it's so important because my motion right now, as I do the math, I'm likely going to lose. I think there's a chance I could lose this motion. My friend from Winnipeg Centre has trouble believing that such a good motion wouldn't pass, but I have a hunch, notwithstanding the gain made with Mr. Lukiwski on our first point, I still sense a long way to go before I can get a majority vote. Ergo, I need to work harder at trying to convince my colleagues of the importance of my motion and its worthiness of their vote. I commit to try to do that, Chair, to help them see the light and understand why this motion should be passed.

So we're still on the first bullet point of me reviewing this again. Mr. Shedletzky, on behalf of Leadnow, has made this statement. I'd like to read it into the record. It relates to the second bullet point, the statement on the need for cross-country hearings:

Over 57,000 Canadians—including Preston Manning—are already calling for changes to the Fair Elections Act. Yet far too many Canadians are still unaware of this Act which makes it harder for Canadians to vote, removes the ability of Elections Canada to conduct important voter engagement efforts, and does not adequately address the core problem of mass voter fraud conducted by political operatives. According to an Angus Reid poll conducted online with 1,511 Canadians of voting age on Feb. 21, with a margin of error of plus or minus 2.5 percentage points, only 20% of Canadians are "very" or "fairly" familiar with this bill. On the other hand, 38% had never even heard of the bill, while 42% have heard of it but are not familiar with its contents.

If I might, Chair, that's exactly the way the government likes it, and that's why they want to ram it through, and that's why they don't want to leave the bubble because it will generate even more attention out there in the country, and they don't want that. This is exactly where they want to be.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Point of order, Chair....

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Continuing with the quote...

Mr. Lukiwski.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Yes, just to reinforce or perhaps underscore my point on repetition, I think “travelling outside the Ottawa bubble” has been repeated certainly ad nauseum, but I'm counting at least 30 or 40 times, so repetition, please.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I don't disagree.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Oh, wait a minute. You're going to slice this down smaller and smaller and smaller until we get to what, if I've used the word “the”? I can't say “the” again. What if Bill Clinton couldn't use the word “is”? Everything would have collapsed.

4:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

4:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I mean, come on. There comes a point...I get the point, but an expression is not allowed anymore because they don't like it?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

If I may, Mr. Chair, respond to that—

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'd like to introduce the people who get to speak.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

—his criticism of us “not travelling outside the bubble” is more than just a phrase, and more than just a word. It's a concept. It's a position he's taken which he's reinforced time and time and time and time and time again. It's repetition. All he's doing here, Mr. Chair, is quite obvious. He's filibustering. We appreciate that. He's doing a fairly good job of it, by the way. I know it's not an easy thing to do. But all he's trying to do, and we all understand that, is try to delay, delay, delay it and eventually he's trying to kill the bill, but he's not bringing anything new to the table.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

May I have the floor?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

He's not bringing anything new to the table, Mr. Chair, and that's my point.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you. I don't disagree with the repetition pieces that you made, Mr. Lukiwski. However—

I'll recognize some others here. Go ahead.

Sorry, but I think Mr. Martin had his hand and mouth open before you.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I just want to ask what the rules of the game are, then, Mr. Chairman? If the point of order has been made about repetition, then I think my colleague has a valid point. Just how fine is this line going to go?

For instance, this is the first time that I've heard him state categorically that the 41st federal election was decided by widespread electoral fraud, and that, to my mind, is something we should all be horrified by. Perhaps, in and of itself, it's justification for taking this—

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We'd love to get on points of order and carry on with the debate, but try to stick to what the point is. The point is repetition.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Well, I'm going to ask you, then, where—

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'm recognizing your colleague, Madame Latendresse.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Alexandrine Latendresse NDP Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Mr. Chair, I would like to say something about Mr. Lukiwski's point of order.

You said that you agree with Mr. Lukiwski's point of order. He spoke about the repetition of three or four words. I would like you to be very clear here. If it is determined that repeating three or four words in the same order is repetition, that will create a problematic precedent.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Yes, I think I'll go along with the fact that repeating three words may not be it, but the gist of what Mr. Christopherson has said.... I'm not going to repeat all of the phrases of fear of being outside the bubble, that type of thing, but he has repeated it a fair bit, so I'm going to go along with that as being an element of repetition.

Mr. Christopherson, back to—what are we on—your motion.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Getting better. Last time it was an impasse. I'm back to a motion, so I'm gaining ground, gaining ground. I've got the lead spokesperson on the government side supporting my first bullet point. I'm back to having a real motion and not being considered just an impasse. I'm making great gains here, great gains. Well worth keeping going.

Okay, speaking of keeping going, Chair, I know you want to run a tight ship, so I will continue with my quote and get on with it.

By the way, Chair, just for reference, this again is Mr. Adam Shedletzky. He's a co-founder of Leadnow and he has issued this public statement. I'm just in the process of reading it so I'll continue:

This is a completely unacceptable level of public awareness for a bill that is so fundamental to our democracy. A bill that changes the voting rules so that 120,000 Canadians would not be able to vote in 2015 the way they voted in 2011. A bill that does not give Elections Canada the most significant power they requested to address voter fraud—the power to compel testimony. A bill with a loophole that allows political parties to spend millions more during an election campaign. A bill that empowers the winner of the past election to appoint the polling supervisor. A bill that restricts Elections Canada from conducting innovative experiments without securing prior approval, or communicating instances of possible voter fraud or the results of investigations, publicly.

Canadians are acting through Leadnow.ca to have their voice heard, since they are not able to engage directly with this Committee through a cross-country tour. They badly want to have further consultations, and to not rush this fundamental bill through Parliament without adequate study or debate across the country.

Here is what a few Canadians have to say about how this Act is being rapidly shepherded through Parliament. These are real people, leaving real comments on Leadnow's petition site: Sharon C. The more I read about this legislation, the more concerned I become. Beverley C. Do not rush us.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Christopherson, I'm going to stop you there as I did the last time we were talking about the group you were talking about and suggest that, when we have them as witnesses, we certainly can get all of this evidence from them. I don't think anyone has suggested that we wouldn't have them as a witness when it was time. So please go back to speaking to your motion rather than potential evidence that's available to us.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Okay, Chair. Thank you. I appreciate that.

I did think, though, when we started to talk about the bill a little bit, that I was half expecting to hear your voice, and fair enough. But these comments, the ones I'm reading.... I'm specifically reading ones that speak to process, which does speak to my motion and stays away from content.