Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 31st, 2014

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you, all, for being here.

I have one or two questions hopefully for all three of you on different aspects of your presentations, and we'll see if we can get through them in seven minutes.

Mr. Brown, in one of the items contained in your brief on alternative voting processes you talked about the fact that many times a printed paper ballot is a deterrent for many disabled Canadians. I'd like to hear a little bit more about that, because I know, for example—and you'd be well aware of this, of course—people who are visually impaired have the ability to bring someone into the polling booth with them, and they can instruct the person where to mark the ballot. You're talking about something that goes far beyond that. You're talking about either telephone or electronic voting.

Let me just ask you, if we remain for the time being with the printed ballot, would extending the ability to all disabled people to bring someone of their choosing into the polling booth, if required, satisfy some of the problems you're talking about now?

[Bob Brown]

I can probably speak to part of that.

For a large number of people with visual disabilities, who have a problem or are visually impaired, it seems to be a fundamental right that the person should not have to rely on someone else and should be able to independently verify which name they're voting for. It's a question of dignity, so in our view it's the ability to personally do it yourself, not having to rely on kindness, or whatever. Not everybody has someone they trust to bring in with them. You don't want to turn to the person next in line and ask, “Can you come in and give me a hand with this?” And you don't really want to rely on a voting official. It comes down to the fundamental democratic rights of the electoral process.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Your comments, certainly, on realizing, understanding, and allowing the dignity of the disabled voter to vote on their own is, I think, a very valid point. I appreciate your comments on that.

Mr. Shannon, I assume you would concur with your colleague Mr. Brown since you always find the true genius to your right.

[David Shannon]

I can only but concur and say that I've also had a personal experience. There is awkwardness that one might only imagine, in a very practical sense, in how some of the families that are engaged might have differing political views. The person you trust might be your spouse, but perhaps you don't agree on who to vote for that day, and it would be preferable to vote independently.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Yes, I'm sure we could have a larger discussion—

[David Shannon]

I think we could.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

—on that issue, but we're here to discuss Bill C-23.

Mr. Willard, if I could turn my attention to you, please, I think, like every parliamentarian here, we've had dinners and meetings with young Canadians through the Forum for Young Canadians. They've been some of the greatest experiences I've ever had.

Unfortunately, on the last couple of trips to Ottawa, I haven't had any members from my riding, but those that I have met over the years, and I've been here for 10 years, I have found to be some of the most engaged, knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and industrious young people I could possibly have met. It has been a true pleasure for me.

I say this because I don't think there's ever a difficulty or a problem motivating that group of individuals, or young people like them, to vote. I think they fundamentally understand whether or not....

You gave the example of someone who, when she first came here, didn't think she would ever vote, but after leaving Ottawa said that she was now waiting for her 18th birthday. I think that almost would be the exception rather than the rule. I have found that most young people who come to the Forum for Young Canadians are absolutely motivated by the time they get here.

That being said, you talked about the need, in your opinion at least, to maintain the provisions contained in section 18 to promote voting among young people. As you would know, in Bill C-23, we are suggesting that the primary role of the Chief Electoral Officer at Elections Canada should be to advertise and to promote how to vote, where to vote, and what identification is needed to vote. Studies have shown that most young people don't vote for the primary reasons that they don't know where or when to vote and they don't know what ID.... We're trying to focus on the how-tos rather than on the motivational factor. In fact, I suppose you could say that any advertising is, in effect, promoting the need to vote.

In your experience, or your opinion at least, if Elections Canada were to concentrate on simply advertising, and advertising significantly, informing Canadians in the lead-up to an election of the requirements for voting—the right ID to bring, how to vote, and where to vote—do you think that would have an effect on increasing voter turnout among young people, or do you think the advertising generally, trying to convince people that they should vote, would be a better way to go?

[Corey Willard]

I don't think there's one answer to your question. In my other job, I'm a lawyer, so I'm usually the one at the other end asking the questions.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

With an answer like that, you're probably going to be a good one, too.

[Corey Willard]

You do highlight a good point. I think that knowing where to vote is, first and foremost, the most important thing. As a student, I remember not very long ago living here in Sandy Hill—back home in Alexandria, I would just drive down the road, and it was always the same place; it has been the same place for the last 20 years—and I did rely on the information on the Internet by Elections Canada on where to vote.

I think of some aboriginal youth who come to the sessions and tell me that when they do the simulation they have never experienced anything like that before. I think that might have an impact either on them or on them telling other people of the role Elections Canada played in the program.

I don't know if I answered your question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You may not have, but it isn't answer time; it's question time.

Thank you.

Madame Latendresse, for seven minutes.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I would like to continue talking about Mr. Lukiwski's questions and Mr. Willard's answers. I actually don't see why that should be mutually exclusive. There is no reason not to be able to simply tell the Elections Canada officials that their agency should focus on that, without necessarily preventing it from implementing all the other existing programs.

My question is perhaps more for Mr. Brown and Mr. Shannon.

Let me start by reading the subclause about communication with electors with disabilities. The bill states:

The Chief Electoral Officer shall ensure that any information provided under subsection (1) is accessible to electors with disabilities.

That means information about how to vote.

Mr. Brown, that's not bad, as you so well pointed out in your presentation. It is a good thing and we are happy to see it in the bill. However, the existing subsection in the Canada Elections Act states:

The Chief Electoral Officer may implement public education and information programs to make the electoral process better known to the public, particularly to those persons and groups most likely to experience difficulties in exercising their democratic rights.

I am particularly astonished about what Mr. Shannon told us earlier. You talked about a 20% difference. In your presentation you said:

Research has shown that people with disabilities are 20% less likely to vote than those without a disability.

You must surely think that people with disabilities are directly targeted by that subsection, which talks about those most likely to experience difficulties in exercising their democratic rights, correct?

[Bob Brown]

I'll answer first.

Part of the problem for some is mobility, just getting where they have to go.

One of the big things again is the poverty a lot of people experience. There is a cost to getting identification. Not everybody has a driver's licence, or photo ID with their address on it. A citizenship card or a passport costs money. Somebody on welfare, which a lot of people with disability are on, doesn't have a lot of extra money at the end of the month. Are they going to pay for groceries or medication or will they go out to buy a citizenship card or a form of ID? You still have to go out to be able to register for that ID in order to get it. I listened to previous speakers tonight. There is a cost. Not everybody is equal. I acknowledge there's a digital fingerprint or thumbprint somewhere, but not everybody has access, not everybody is able to get that ID. That's one of the big things we wanted to impress upon you.

[David Shannon]

To your point, too, I did appreciate the current wording has shifted. One might argue that it's shifted in tone, purpose, and even toward a greater vagueness. Certainly our argument would be to open the doors to greater education to, as you noted, the so-called absent citizens, and find new levers to help them engage at that very grassroots level so they can move from grassroots to much greater and fuller political and democratic participation.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Another point has been raised.

Now, we can no longer use the voter identification card to prove residence. The proof of address is what makes voter identification very difficult at polling stations. It was determined that young people were most likely to use that card. I myself was in that situation. For a long time, I was registered at my parents' address, even though my school was a seven-hour drive away.

You also talked about all the people in homes or other facilities who will have a great deal of difficulty in proving their address. In your view, voter identification cards could help those people identify themselves at polling stations.

[Bob Brown]

There are a lot of people still in long-term care facilities and nursing homes, seniors, persons with disabilities. These people do vote, especially seniors and persons with disabilities. The administration, because of resources or whatever, may or may not issue letters for this purpose.

The OHIP card was talked about. People don't necessarily have them in their possession. They may be held by family members or the administration of the facility they're in, so they're not able to independently provide identification or the identity card. This is a problem that we see. People do need to be able to rely on that card. That's going to eliminate a lot of people. For anybody in the hospital it's the same process. They're not able, first of all, to get to a voting place, but there are systems for that. Without that VIC or a.... People just don't have that kind of information with them.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Shannon, do you have anything to add?

[David Shannon]

I think we can't discount the intersection of poverty.

As Mr. Brown had noted, if a person is on a disability pension, it's not that they're at a long-term care facility—the vast majority are in the community—but if it's a $30 taxi ride, and then there's a fee to get that identification and it has to be two pieces of identification, it becomes just too much, especially if one is trying to also just negotiate support services and care to get around their disability. They're not going to get those identification cards.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

That's a really good point. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Madam Latendresse.

We'll go to Mr. Lamoureux, for seven minutes.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

I must say that I have enjoyed the presentations. I have learned something from them.

Even though I would love to ask the questions related to the compelling of witnesses and so forth, and you can feel free to provide comments on those issues, I want to question Mr. Brown and Mr. Shannon. The two of you are here from the disability community, and I think it's important to try to focus some attention on that right now.

Do either one of your groups or associations have opportunities afforded to you to meet with Elections Canada as an organization to go over some of the concerns that you've expressed before the committee?

Maybe, Mr. Brown, you could start off, and then we'll go to Mr. Shannon.

[Bob Brown]

I'd have to get back to you on what's happened recently. In the past, CCD has worked with Elections Canada for information programs. That was one of the worries, the capability of providing information programs. It's how to vote, and the alternative formats like Braille and sign language, the different kinds of disabilities that come along. It's not just mobility. There's a broad spectrum of different kinds of disabilities, and you have to be able to address all of them. Each one is an individual with the right to vote, no matter what the disability is.

[David Shannon]

We come as an organization that supports a network of academic researchers, disabled persons organizations, and other policy-makers. Individual members who are part of this network do work directly, in all facets, from Veterans Affairs to Elections Canada. Our focus had been primarily with respect to interests in polling sites, but that's why this new research that we've been doing and have supported.... In fact, I was the lead in this research, to drill down into the more fundamental aspects of democracy and find that it's wanting. That is where I think democracy is made, in the meeting rooms and the campaign offices.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

What I'm thinking is that proposed section 18 of the legislation obviously causes a great deal of concern for both of you, in fact, all three, in terms of limiting Elections Canada's ability to study, to work with different stakeholders, and so forth. That's the reason I ask if they've had that sort of contact with you.

Could you provide any comment in regard to the value of Elections Canada at least being afforded the opportunity to respond and to investigate, to do studies on things related to disabilities and what sorts of things we could be doing?

Mr. Shannon, I was reading through your presentation about campaign offices and other things. You give a number of bullets in terms of the types of things we should be doing as candidates. I don't know if it was you or Mr. Brown who made reference to the fact that we need to be from a party perspective and maybe that should be taken into consideration in legislation.

Maybe you both want to provide comment on that.

[Bob Brown]

First of all, as I said, in the past, CCD has worked with Elections Canada. Getting information to persons with disabilities and even to seniors, to some extent seniors with disabilities, can be problematic. What kinds of forums? We do have nine provinces, one territory, and seven other national organizations that are members of CCD, so we have a dissemination through our affiliates to get information down to them and to the individuals. It would be pretty hard to get to some individuals.

We have in the past worked with.... This is one of the things that concern us. That kind of thing may disappear. The Chief Electoral Officer would lose that ability to work with such organizations as ours or others, to be able to get information down to people.