Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 1st, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Lamoureux. That was way over.

We're going to Mr. Reid, please, for four minutes.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I hope you show the same generous interpretation of the words “four minutes” that you showed for “seven minutes” just a moment ago, actually many moments ago.

I'm going to start by taking direct issue with something Mr. Lamoureux said, because it is factually wrong. He asserts that proposed section 18 of the fair elections act would prohibit Elections Canada from making contact with people to encourage them to get out and vote if they have disabilities. It's clever wording, but the fact is that proposed section 18 does quite the opposite.

It says, “The Chief Electoral Officer may provide the public, both inside and outside Canada, with information on the following topics only” and lists (a), (b), (c), (d), and then (e), which is relevant, “the measures for assisting electors with a disability to access a polling station or advance polling station or to mark a ballot”. It also says, “The Chief Electoral Officer shall ensure that any information provided under subsection (1)”—which is what I just read—“is accessible to electors with disabilities.”

It tells you how to become an elector and how to make sure your name is on the list of electors, which is a matter that can be very difficult for someone with disabilities.

These are matters, Mr. Lamoureux, which Elections Canada has to a great degree been neglecting. I made a point of working very hard to convince the minister to put language like this into the legislation. It seems to me now, in listening to the testimony, that the problem is that this is not directive enough. It doesn't actually say that he must do this; it only says that these are things he should do. I'm trying to focus him on doing these things, which he has been neglecting for years and years and years, despite the ongoing need.

Having said all of that, I have a question for Ms. Bergeron. I wanted to ask about the voter information card, which is of course the piece of mail that arrives telling you that they think the person living at this house is you. In my case, I get a card saying that they think the person at the address is Scott Reid and where to go to vote. It gives some other information as well. All of that is available as it arrives in my mailbox, in English and French, but obviously it doesn't come in Braille.

I don't know, is a Braille version put out for houses where the person living there is visually impaired? Are some efforts being made to provide people with this kind of information in a form that is accessible and usable for them if they have a visual impairment?

[Diane Bergeron]

No, there is no Braille version that comes out. In fact, the voter card feels very much like a coupon that you get for pizza, so it often gets missed by people who are blind or partially sighted, because it feels the same as every other piece of mail that comes through. It's no different from any coupon that comes to the door. When we get those, we don't often notice them right away.

Typically, someone who is blind or partially sighted will call the electoral office to find out where they have to go to vote or they will ask a neighbour. That's usually how we find out where we're supposed to go.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Would it be helpful.... I'm not sure it would be. I'm actually just throwing this out. You'd know better than I would. Would it be helpful if Elections Canada were to make an effort to keep track of people who were visually impaired? If they got, I don't know, an update to their database from the CNIB and then tried to send out information in Braille to those people, or would that not be useful?

[Diane Bergeron]

Again, not everybody who is blind or partially sighted is registered with CNIB, so our database wouldn't necessarily help you reach everybody in Canada who is blind or partially sighted. As for putting out Braille, many people who are blind or partially sighted don't read Braille, so I think that—

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Do you know what percentage of blind and partially sighted people read Braille versus those who don't? Have you any idea?

[Diane Bergeron]

Do you remember?

[A voice]

No.

[Diane Bergeron]

In the last stats I remember, it's something very low. For someone who's proficient at Braille, it's about 3%.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Oh wow. Okay.

[Diane Bergeron]

In saying that, there are a lot of people I know who read what I call “elevator Braille”. They learn the basic numbers and so on, so that they can tell what the elevator floors are, or they learn just the basics for phone numbers and so on, or the uncontracted Braille. But the people who do use Braille are very reliant on Braille. I carry a slate and stylus like you carry a pen and paper. I use my Braille quite often, and I wouldn't consider myself very proficient.

If that card were sent in Braille, the first thing we would notice is that it's a Braille card. Even if we don't read it, we would certainly pay attention to it, but it wouldn't necessarily give the information you're looking for.

The other thing is that Braille is large. It's really big. On a business card, you only have four lines. There would not be room on that card to put in Braille all the information that's in print.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Right.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We'll stop there and go to Mr. Christopherson for four minutes, or thereabouts, apparently.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm not going there, Chair. I don't have a lot of credibility when it comes to the clock. I'll just leave things.

Thank you all very, very much for your presentations.

Let me just lament how disappointed I am that we aren't having this kind of input at the beginning of the process rather than effectively trying to ram it in after the process.

I thought it was very interesting, Diane and Kory, that both of you talked about vouching and the importance of ID. You need to know that your position, from a practical everyday living life point of view, is supported by virtually hundreds of academics in Canada and internationally who agree.

Now, the government did manage to scare up one person—one person. They scoured the planet and found one person who agrees with them that vouching is fine to eliminate, and, at the risk of wrongly paraphrasing their comments, they were basically arguing that in this digital age it's almost impossible—he had trouble understanding how—any Canadian could not have the ID required to go and vote.

As I say, all the other experts and you point to a different reality. I'd like to give you an opportunity just to expand a little, to make it very clear in a real way both how vouching is helpful, and conversely, how damaging it would be to the rights of many Canadians to vote if it were eliminated.

Go ahead, please.

[Kory Earle]

Absolutely.

I think vouching is as critical today as it was last week. We've come a long way for Canadians to vote, and yet we're turning around and saying that they must come with ID. There's no question that some people have ID, but I can tell you right now that when someone vouches, it gives someone hope, whether that person is vouching or not. If you're talking about secret ballots, that person can also be the neutral person helping them as well.

This act should not just be about ID. It shouldn't be about saying, “You know what? You're entitled, as a Canadian citizen, to vote in a democracy, but we are going to make some barriers to that happening”. That's not what we want to see. That's not what Canadians want to see. Canadians want to see a commitment from all parties and governments to turn around and say, “We're not taking democracy away because you have to come up with this ID.”

I can tell you right now that not everybody has a CNIB card; not everybody has a membership card to their organization; not everybody has a photo ID. I have photo ID, but I can tell you right now that a lot of our members don't have that ID.

The question is whether this act is about turning people away from voting in a democracy or about encouraging people. Having barriers does affect people's lives each and every day. People with disabilities face enough challenges in Canada. They don't need a government or a party to create barriers, or to turn around and say, “Guess what? You're now not going to vote, but you already have challenges, so it's okay.” There needs to be more leeway.

The experts involved in this should be people with disabilities, because they're the ones who can talk with experience. I can talk about the experiences I've gone through growing up and the challenges. Many can. I think it's shameful about the vouching, and I think it needs to be looked at more seriously moving forward.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Diane.

[Diane Bergeron]

I don't have any specific statistics on what percentage of people with vision loss in Canada do or do not have identification. We are very pleased that the CNIB card can be used as identification. I can tell you that quite regularly I get calls from folks saying that they don't understand why they can't get on a plane with their CNIB card because it has a picture ID. They ask me why we're not making our CNIB cards government-issued ID. Of course, the answer that CNIB is not government doesn't always get a good response.

The reality is that the CNIB card may be their only source of ID, and that might not even be enough to get a provincial identification card. They need other things.

I can't give you the percentage, and I can't tell you exactly how many people it will affect, but I can tell you that there are going to be some people affected.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

Mr. Reid, you have four minutes to finish this off, please.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

You've been very kind in your comments, Kory, but just so people know, what happened was that, in the process of designing the bill, the minister approached me and asked if I could think of groups that have any insight into the disabled community.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

He didn't ask me.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

He didn't ask me either.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

You know, I wouldn't have asked you either, David. You're just so grumpy.

Anyway, as it turned out, he asked me, so I thought of People First. I kind of used this as a way to advertise some of the great work People First does. This is an organization that's all about taking people with disabilities and helping them to maintain and develop their independence and their decision-making abilities. They are a really inspirational group.

Both of you guys, I'm always amazed at the great work you and the folks with you do.

We met at my constituency office and I got a lot of input that I thought was really helpful, for which I'm grateful.

I wanted to ask you about something that came up which I had not thought of until you mentioned it just now. You mentioned anxiety disorder, right? Frankly it's just one of those things that hadn't crossed my mind. I think of the things that are obvious: mobility disorders, visual impairments, and so on. Can you just tell me a bit about that?

[Kory Earle]

Absolutely. Thank you, Scott Reid. We're proud of the work we've been able to do right across Lanark County and indeed across the country. We applaud you and the minister for selecting us to meet, because who better else to know than the members who face the challenges each and every day.

Anxiety attack: Diane actually brought that up at the meeting. She brought that up, but also a lot of the challenges that she's heard from her members.

With respect to anxiety attacks, a huge crowd affects people. It actually turns them away. When they go into the voting station there are too many people. Then they start having an anxiety attack, and then they turn around and walk out the door because they think, “Well, I'm not going to vote when there are 40 people there.” It could be a lower number, but they turn around and walk away. They don't want to have a big showdown for everybody out there, because they're already being labelled as it is. That's a huge thing. That's why I say that having an extra advance polling day hopefully will get people to take that opportunity and use that.

It creates stigma, and they're going through more than a lot of us know. I have a twin who is diagnosed with schizophrenia and developmental disability. He can't be around a huge crowd. How do I get him to vote? I used to say, “Okay, let's go to the voting station and vote.” As soon as he walks in there and sees 20, 30 people, he walks away. Then he actually hides in the washroom because he's afraid. As his twin brother—and there are many who don't have that support—my role is to really guide him and say, “It's okay. Nobody's looking at you. It's okay.” That's fine and dandy for me to say, but I don't know what he's going through. Then he walks away. On an advance polling day, he could walk in and there would be maybe just a few people. Then he can slowly go over there and vote, but he still has the anxiety of whether 10 more people are going to walk in the door.

That's a huge concern. How do you deal with that? I think you deal with it on an individual basis as they come in. You make sure that when people are working, they have accessible staff who are there to guide people.

Not many people have families. Not many people have someone who they can lean on for support. My twin Kyle is lucky. He has a huge family in Carleton Place, but I can tell you that 95% of our members don't have loved ones and families who they can rely on for support to guide them.

I think that's really critical when you're looking at this to ensure that the individual's interests should be ahead of everything else and make sure that they feel comfortable. It could be a side room. They could be told, “It's okay. There are many people who have anxiety, so here's a room where you can vote.”

I hope that answers your question in terms of the anxiety.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Reid, for your questions.

Thank you, witnesses, for coming and sharing with us today. I think we got a lot of input from you today, and it really helps.

I'm going to suspend for a couple of minutes to excuse you, and we'll have another panel come in. Thank you so much for your help today.

We'll suspend for two minutes.