Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 29th, 2013

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Kevin Lamoureux]

I actually have Tom, then it is Elizabeth.

Tom, if you want to respond, then I'm going to be asking for leave for.... Did you want Elizabeth to go before you?

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

It doesn't really matter. I want to go in order. I thought Elizabeth might have been before me, but if I'm—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Kevin Lamoureux]

That's what I thought, but it was written down differently so I'm going by what I see in print. Why don't I simply ask the question. Is there leave to allow Ms. May to be able to present to the committee?

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Sure.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Kevin Lamoureux]

For both members?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Kevin Lamoureux]

Go ahead, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, members of the committee, for allowing me to speak to this, because it bears directly on my rights.

I want to start by saying that I'm going to use some forceful language, but I want to make it clear that I'm speaking to the system that would allow this to happen and not to any of you as individuals. You're my friends, and this is not personal.

What's taking place here is essentially an attempt at parliamentary vandalism. The writing of laws and legislation usually goes through a long process when we're making a change to the rules. This is a backdoor mechanism. It's only a fiction that this is Scott's motion coming to this committee, because the identical motion came from Andrew Saxton at the finance committee, and there was a motion earlier today at the ethics committee. I imagine all committees are going to be asked by the PMO to put forward identical motions that fundamentally change the way legislation moves through the House but without the usual practice and study that take place. On behalf of a number of independent members of Parliament and me as a Green Party member of Parliament, I've shared with you a longer letter. I'm obviously not going to recapitulate those arguments, but they go to the fundamental principle of the following.

All members of Parliament in this place are equal, and we were functionally equal until 1963 when the organized political parties managed to get through a change to the rules that said that if you were in a party with more than 12 MPs you were going to get more financial resources. Over time that's been expanded to include rights. Although it wasn't actually written in the 1963 motion, I accept that it's been expanded. I'm not trying to overturn the notion that until you have 12 MPs in your party you don't get a seat at committee and you're not going to get a daily question in question period. That's all sort of latched on through incremental changes that came along with financial resources for parties with more than 12 MPs. But this is the first time that any motion, either through the front door or the back door, has attempted to reduce the limited remaining rights of people in parties such as my own and the Bloc Québécois with fewer than 12 members or of independent members who don't represent a party at all. In constitutional terms we're still all equal. In constitutional terms our constituents are all equal and deserve equal representation.

The second point I want to make briefly is that it is completely not equal, equivalent or fair to say, “oh well, we had rights to present amendments at report stage in the House and now those rights have been shifted to committee”. In the House, the only way I am ever able to speak to a bill in any substantive way other than through repeat interventions from questions and comments, and the only way I ever get 10 minutes to speak to a bill in the House, particularly with time allocation, is if substantive amendments have been accepted by the Speaker at report stage.

The only way to actually explain my amendments in any significant and real way is in those moments on the floor at report stage. It is not equal or equivalent to have motions deemed to have been moved, to allow members in my position a minute to speak to an amendment, but to prevent them from responding to misunderstandings of it from other members. I could not even respond when a member of the finance committee suggested a friendly amendment and asked me, “Is that friendly?” I wasn't allowed to answer. That happened last spring in the finance committee, the environment committee, natural resources committee, and justice committee. They all did the same thing. They allowed me to present an amendment for one minute but not to respond to it. That opportunity is not equivalent or equal to what's being taken away at the report stage in the House. This is subterfuge. This is an offence to individual members of Parliament and to the institution of Parliament itself, and because I believe you to be really good people over there, I would like to ask you respectfully to withdraw this motion. You don't have a bill before this committee right now. There is no urgency to pass this motion.

As the members of the official opposition have made very clear this morning, this committee has important work to do and this motion is in the way. Rather than push it through.... Although “might makes right” and you have all the votes, in this instance you're stomping on the rights of individual members of Parliament. I know that as individual members yourselves, you don't want to do that. Please withdraw this motion and don't put it to a vote today.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Kevin Lamoureux]

Jean-François.

[Jean-François Fortin, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to add to the comments of my colleague, Ms. May. In fact, this motion deprives us of a fundamental right, the right to submit amendments to the House of Commons. We understand the decision of the Speaker of the House to ask the committees to find a way so that we can play our role there. However, we think the wording of the motion prevents us from attaining the objectives the Speaker had in mind when he made his decision.

Like Ms. May, I do not think it is urgent that we pass this motion today; rather, it would be more appropriate for the committee to consider it in an organized way. What I mean by that is that we should introduce a process to conduct a study on the rights of independent members of Parliament and on the role we must give members of non-recognized parties; in other words, parties that do not meet the criteria, for example, having at least 12 members. The same goes for the members who have been expelled from caucus or who have been elected as independent MPs. So it would be appropriate to set up a process to study the rights of independent members and draw from other Westminster-style Parliaments that, like us, have thought about the role that MPs who are not caucus members or who are not considered independent must play.

For example, other places in the world with the same political system and the same parliamentary process as us, as well as legislative assemblies across Canada, have managed to make a place for independent members. We can look to the Quebec National Assembly, for example, which gave members the right to sit in a parliamentary committee. Not only does that include the right to suggest amendments, but also the right to explain them, argue and put questions to witnesses, whose answers may have some bearing on the proposed amendments.

This motion quickly rushes out the back door the prerogative of MPs to properly represent their constituents, not only in the House of Commons, but also using all the existing mechanisms in committees. We must be given the chance to fully represent our constituents.

The motion as worded proposes, among other things, that we make brief observations to support our amendments. It does not allow us to conclude that the rights of independent members or members from non-recognized parties would be preserved. According to the Bloc Québécois, serious harm will occur if this motion is passed as worded today.

I invite you to take the time to think about it. You have the means to put in place a thought process that is much more comprehensive and goes much further for society and for the Canadians we represent.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Kevin Lamoureux]

Thank you.

We go to Tom, followed by Nathan.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Then it may be followed by Tom again.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Kevin Lamoureux]

Quite possibly.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

We're eventually going to be talking in circles here, so I won't take up too much time to rebut what both Jean-François and Elizabeth May said. Suffice it to say that we're going to agree to disagree. I don't think we're going to be getting anything resolved by debating back and forth, whether we're right, they're right, or somewhere in between. Suffice it to say that the government's position is that we will not reject the motion, we will not remove the motion. We feel that it's legitimate and that it's fair, frankly.

I would also point out that when we first introduced the motion, David, who spoke on behalf of the NDP, said, “Yes, I thought the motion was good; we're actually giving something to the members that they hadn't already had.”

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Now, I've given clarification as to what it really was. Come on, Tom.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

It's true: you cannot deny the fact that they will be receiving something they didn't have before, and that is the ability to go to committee to make amendments. I'll leave it at that.

With respect to a couple of other points made, specifically David's, who said he was glad to hear that I had agreed to the two-track process, I hadn't. I will still be arguing the sub judice convention, certainly. I take full well the fact that the Speaker has found a prima facie case. I respect that, but I also realize that committees are the masters of their own agenda, their own fate, and their own schedule, and we can determine exactly when we begin that. I just firmly believe that anything....

That's why the sub judice convention has been recognized. That's why it has been diligently observed every time there is an occasion when comments made, whether in the House or in committee, could be prejudicial to an ongoing court case. We have respected that as parliamentarians. We have respected not going down that road. I think we have to continue to do that.

We can still get to it, but there is an ongoing court case right now, and we have a conflict with things that may be said in this committee that could ultimately be proven prejudicial to the court proceedings. Whether they be prejudicial to Mr. Bezan or to Elections Canada, it matters not. The fact is that quite clearly the convention is put there to prevent this type of prejudicial comment from being made by parliamentarians under our privilege and under the immunity provided to us, both in committee and in the House. I don't think we can go down that road in a track parallel to the study on MP transparency. I will argue that in far more detail if need be.

With respect to going back to the study on MP transparency, listen, I share the views of everyone here that we need to get some resolution of that. However, I do take some offence, frankly, to the characterization by the NDP that it seems they are the only ones—or they're at least trying to imply that they are the only ones—really wanting to get this done because they're truly the ones wanting to make sure that we shine the light on MP expenses. I would point out, as I've done before, as has Kevin, that if they were truly, truly wanting to shed light on MP transparency, they would follow the lead that both the Liberals and our party have done—

[An hon. member]

You haven't done anything.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

—by already committing to voluntarily post expenses online. That's something we've done.

We would like to see a system put in place—and I think the Board of Internal Economy has started to get something that we might be able to agree upon—that all parties can utilize so there is consistency in reporting. That's great, but in the interim, since the Board of Internal Economy is saying that they won't have their system ready until next April, we're voluntarily posting our expenses, as are the Liberals. The NDP have not agreed to do so. So let's be very cautious about the characterization that there is only one party that is really concerned about this. We are, because we're doing it. I have not seen the NDP agree to this. I don't know why.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

You've done zero. You've done less than zero.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Well, Peter, you can have your words, but words are far weaker than actions. The NDP is the only registered, recognized party that is not posting expenses. I believe Elizabeth is already and has been for some time—

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I scan all my expense receipts.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

—but I leave it to the public to determine who is really serious about showing the expenses of their members.

With that, Chair, I'll leave and let Nathan speak—except that I would like, as I mentioned earlier, for us to dispense by way of a vote with Mr. Reid's motion and then hopefully move on to Madam Turmel's motion.

The last word on that is that there's some criticism that we brought this motion of Scott's forward in an inappropriate manner. I would point out that Madam Turmel also has given a motion in the same fashion we presented ours and we will be debating that, so I don't think there's anything wrong with what we did. Nor do I think there's anything wrong with Madam Turmel putting her motion forward for debate.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Kevin Lamoureux]

Nathan.