Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 28th, 2014

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Since 2006-07 you have been given another area of prosecutorial jurisdiction with respect to election law. You mentioned that to Mr. Lamoureux. So that's yet another area of federal jurisdiction for prosecution under your department. Since 2007 has the Attorney General interfered in any of the prosecutions related to election offences?

[Brian J. Saunders]

No, he has not.

Let me elaborate. As I pointed out in the background document that I provided to the committee, under the Director of Public Prosecutions Act, the attorney general does not have the authority to issue any directives in respect of Elections Act prosecutions, nor am I required to provide him with notice of Elections Act prosecutions, nor do I include reference to Elections Act prosecutions in the annual report provided to Parliament through the attorney general.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

So the concerns expressed by some with respect to the nature of that technical reporting are not serious in your opinion?

[Brian J. Saunders]

Under the proposal that was made last Friday, the commissioner of elections will report separately on the activities of his office. He will attach that report to my report, but it will not be something I'll be reporting on.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

You talked about perception in some detail during your opening statement, and in some of your responses to my colleagues. You raised a few areas in which you were concerned about perception in the same way that conflict of interest could be real or perceived, and you were concerned about some perceptions. Is perception itself not a bigger issue when the investigation and prosecution services are housed within a specialized agency, so that within that very agency they're looking back to investigate while part of that agency is looking forward on the administration and costs?

[Brian J. Saunders]

The difficulty would be if the prosecution function and the investigative function were vested in the same person.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Prior to the changes in 2007 by our government, those the investigation and prosecution functions were housed in the same person, were they not?

[Brian J. Saunders]

I only know what I read. I think I read testimony from one witness who mentioned that was the case.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

In 2006 the investigation function was separated from the prosecution function, and now with the fair elections act, the investigations, which will remain separate, are going to be housed within the specialized federal prosecutors' offices, but, as you said, they will be distinct within that. Would it not be fair to say that the changes from 2006 to today actually get at the root of eliminating perception issues?

[Brian J. Saunders]

They don't eliminate the perception problems that I mentioned. If you look at my testimony as a whole, the perception problems I mentioned are ones that could arise, and my conclusion is that they can be addressed by the safeguards in the statute and the administrative measures we could take. In terms of what existed before 2006, as I say, I only know what I read in the testimony. I'm not really in a position to comment on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

We're going to go to Madame Latendresse for four minutes, please.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to mention that I will be sharing my speaking time with Mr. Christopherson.

Mr. Saunders, thank you for being here today to speak to us about these changes.

I would like to focus on some points that were raised previously. I will speak to you in French since it is my native language.

Can you confirm to us that you were not consulted concerning the changes that will affect your service?

[Brian J. Saunders]

No. We were not consulted.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Did you read the report of the commissioner when he came to speak to us about these changes?

[Brian J. Saunders]

I read his testimony, but not the report that he tabled. I did not know that he had tabled a report.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I was referring, rather, to Mr. Côté's testimony. When he came to testify before the committee he said this:

With the separation of the commissioner from Elections Canada, there is, in my view, a danger in the long term of a disconnect between the administration of the rules and their enforcement. To avoid that risk, it is critical that an ongoing relationship between the two entities be preserved and nurtured.

Mr. Côté talked about that disconnect quite a bit. The Chief Electoral Officer also referred to it. When the commissioner talked to the committee about it, I saw a big problem. Even the commissioner assured us that at this time he is completely independent from Elections Canada. He had some grave concerns regarding this possible disconnect.

Do you share the commissioner's concerns and those of the Chief Electoral Officer in that regard?

[Brian J. Saunders]

You are talking about the current links between the...

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I am talking about the relationship between the commissioner and Elections Canada.

[Brian J. Saunders]

I think Mr. Côté rather than myself should answer that question, because this concerns investigations and not prosecutions.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

But do you not think that this type of comment as well as the way in which it was presented and explained to us would justify our wondering why this transfer should occur? Many believe that this is not necessarily an enormous problem or a very bad change, but that its appropriateness needs to be evaluated, since this may not really affect the commissioner's independence.

[Brian J. Saunders]

As I mentioned earlier, it is a matter of policy that concerns the government. It will be up to Parliament to make the decision. I am only here to discuss the operational impacts such a change may have on the PPSC.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Fine. Thank you very much.

I am going to yield the rest of my speaking time to Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Great. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here, sir.

Again, you were not consulted at all about this change?

[Brian J. Saunders]

That's right.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

So the Chief Electoral Officer and the previous one were not consulted, and the elections commissioner and the previous one were not consulted. Now we're now making a major structural change, and the person at the head of that department was also not consulted.

Let's underscore the fact that the only people who were consulted on this bill and had input were card-carrying members of the Conservative Party. If you didn't belong to the Conservative Party, you got no input into this law. Here's further evidence.

Who is your immediate boss, sir?