Evidence of meeting #23 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kendall Worth  As an Individual
Robert Lundrigan  Assistant Executive Director, Halifax Booth Centre, Salvation Army
Paul Shakotko  Manager, Neighbourhood Change, United Way of Halifax Region
Tanis Crosby  Executive Director, YWCA Halifax

2:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), our study is on the federal contribution to reducing poverty in Canada. Our fourth meeting today, meeting number 23, is about to commence.

I thank all my guests for being here today. Before we get started, we're going to do something a little bit different. We have a young man by the name of Kendall Worth here from Street Feat, who's going to take a couple of minutes to talk to us. We'll set the timer for about three minutes, and then if any members have any questions for Kendall, they can ask them and then we'll proceed with our other round.

Ken, sir, the floor is yours. You have three minutes.

2:30 p.m.

Kendall Worth As an Individual

Thank you very much.

For starters, I want to thank Mr. Savage for arranging for me to be here today to have the opportunity to speak.

Street Feat is a local non-profit street newspaper that we have in Halifax and Dartmouth, and the purpose of our paper is to raise awareness about poverty and poverty-related issues. The stories and articles in this paper are written by a combination of people who live in low-income situations, people who are totally homeless, and other supporters and supporting organizations for these people. We also have organizations and agencies that help people in poverty buy ads from us, plus we open up the invitation for other businesses and organizations to buy ads as well, even if their mandate is not helping the poor.

Street Feat is an initiative that started about...well, right now we're in our twelfth year. What we do is give people of the kind I talked about an opportunity to have social and economical responsibilities in their lives. When you see a vendor out selling the paper, half of the $1.50 you pay for the paper goes to pay the vendor's wages. The reason for that is because that vendor is living in a poverty situation and could be a mental health victim, a person with a disability, or someone who has a disadvantage in some way, shape, or form, or simply a person trying to get back on their feet.

In our paper we cover stories about all areas of poverty. We don't stick to only one area of poverty alone. With my experience of knowing about poverty over the years, I find the biggest reason here in Nova Scotia for some people living in poverty is because of the social assistance rates we have in our province. In Halifax today, for a nice place to live it costs upwards of at least $600 to $750, within that range, at the lowest. The most social services will pay for an apartment for those who are on assistance is $535, so I think the rate they allocate for paying rent for an apartment needs to go up.

By the way, the rate I have mentioned is for a single person. I don't know what it is for a couple, or a single mom with kids.

Another point is that when you're on the system and you do earn extra income, 70% of it gets taken away. Some people are allowed to keep the first $150 and then 70% gets deducted after that. I've heard of both happening. Anyway, that's the biggest thing that causes poverty here in Nova Scotia.

As was discussed on the panels earlier about EI, I personally know a guy who has been waiting three months to get his first unemployment cheque, though it was already approved three months ago. So that's an example of how slowly EI is responding these days.

I simply wanted to bring those points up.

2:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Ken.

I know we have a couple of quick questions, and then we're going to proceed with Tony, then Mike, and then we'll move on to the rest of the panel.

2:35 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

For the interest of the rest of the panel, this reminds me--and maybe Josée would be able to fill us in a bit more on this--that in Quebec they have a very well-developed social economy with co-ops and different ways to include people in the economy so that they can be gainfully employed. They are not necessarily turning over the kind of profit that a private sector venture would, but they take the money that's generated and plow it back into the enterprise so that people can be gainfully employed who otherwise might not be.

To me, your program smacks of the same kind of thing, and I'd like to ask you, Ken, where did the money come from to get your program started in the first place?

2:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Kendall Worth

I was not involved when Street Feat was started. I got involved in its fourth year. If you buy a copy of the paper, you will find our contact information in the grey section on the second page. If you call JC out at head office, he can answer that question better than I can, because he's been involved in it right from the get-go.

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Perfect. Thanks.

Mike.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I want to thank Kendall for coming here. He's been here all day. Tony and I thought it would be worthwhile for people to hear from Kendall. It's through the indulgence of the chair, the staff, and other committee members that we were able to put him on the agenda. I think it's important that we hear from people like him who have first-hand experience with poverty on the street.

Kendall, I'm sure we all appreciate the fact that you came and took some time with us today.

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you.

Kendall.

2:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Kendall Worth

In Montreal they have a newspaper that is similar to Street Feat, and there's one in Toronto as well. I don't know what the one in Montreal is called, but the one in Toronto is called Outreach. I know some of you today are visiting from Ontario, so if you're ever in Toronto you might want to keep your eye open for that paper. It's the same kind of non-profit newspaper and organization as Street Feat.

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Those of us in Ontario try to stay away from Toronto as much as possible.

Madam Beaudin.

2:35 p.m.

Bloc

Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

In Quebec, we have a paper called L'Itinéraire, which is the equivalent of your paper. L'Itinéraire is mainly sold in the Montreal area and, increasingly, in the business district and on the city's main streets. The more people buy this paper, the greater the likelihood that they will get to know the person who is selling the paper, and ask the person how they are doing and what kind of work they do. The articles are mostly written by homeless people. In fact, it was discovered that some of them had a real talent for writing. A charitable organization which looks after the needs of the homeless decided to start this paper. It is sold every day for $2. Of that amount, $1 goes to the person selling the paper, and the other dollar supports the production of the paper. I would like to congratulate you for having started this kind of project in Halifax. I hope that many people will buy your paper. It is an excellent initiative.

The initiatives you are talking about, Mr. Martin, are projects which are part of the social economy. Indeed, their objective is to help people get back into the job market. These people will create a small social economy business. For instance, it could be an organization which collects old bicycles and fixes them up. The profits generated by this activity go back to the business, which becomes sustainable and might even create paying jobs.

2:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Kendall Worth

Thank you.

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Kendall, and my thanks to members of the committee for making that recommendation.

We have with us, from the YWCA, Tanis Crosby, the executive director. Welcome. Thank you for taking time today out of your very busy schedule. We also have Paul Shakotko from the United Way. Thank you, sir, for being here. And we have Robert Lundrigan from the Salvation Army.

We'll begin with Robert.

2:40 p.m.

Robert Lundrigan Assistant Executive Director, Halifax Booth Centre, Salvation Army

My name is Robert Lundrigan. I thank you for the invitation to speak on behalf of the Salvation Army in Halifax today.

As you may know, the Salvation Army started in 1865 in east London, when social services were unheard of. Some 144 years later, we serve in 118 countries. In Canada, we're second only to the government in providing social services to Canadians, mainly Canadians who live in poverty, homelessness, and those dealing with addiction.

As you are aware, poverty has been studied for many years in Canada, with efforts being made by many levels of government. The result is that poverty continues to increase in both absolute and relative terms.

Your request was to provide a view on how the federal government can contribute to reducing poverty. Many would claim, and history has shown, that throwing money at something will fix anything, but it simply hasn't worked. We must have one national strategy to reduce poverty: a strategy of prevention.

This issue is probably more challenging for the government today than the introduction of national heath care was some 50 years ago. The lack of a national poverty strategy actually drains more resources from all levels of government. I see in our centre every day the effects of lack of regular and consistent health care or diet for our clients. Besides the person paying with their declining health, the system pays. Often we see preventable trips to the emergency department—preventable $600 ambulance rides day in and day out. When that person, who might have been self-sustaining, becomes a 100% burden on our social safety net, who's paying then?

The federal government must take the proactive role of building the strategy in conjunction with the provinces, territories, and municipal governments. No longer can we afford to have the one level of government throwing up its hands and saying they're waiting on a response or for funding agreements—or those kinds of things. From our perspective, we're continuously waiting on one level or another of government so we can move forward.

Many times over history in our country, the federal government has had to take a lead and implement a strategy to resolve a national problem. I suggest that the time is here. At the top of this strategy must be a provision for affordable housing for all Canadians. Without affordable housing, a person cannot gain their dignity, improve their diet, manage their own health and mental health, get a job, or get up in the morning to get to that job, let alone receive the care they need for things as critical as a heart transplant.

I go back to the summer of 2007 when, along with some other social service agencies, we assisted a family of five with three small children who were living in a tent. It doesn't sound too bad in July, except they had been evicted because all of their funds had been exhausted getting the dad a heart transplant. Weeks after his return from Ottawa with a transplant, they found themselves cooking over an open fire, living in a tent. My comment to myself was that only in Canada can we invest the hundreds of thousands of dollars required for heart transplants, but not the $1,000 a month to provide a home so they can return to a productive lifestyle.

And what about the children's future? What safety net will there be for them, in all likelihood, over the possible next 100 years? We read in the news today that lots of people are reaching the age of 100. We need a national strategy, so all Canadians can have a chance—the same chance, no matter if you live in Canada's richest province or its poorest province, the warmest province or the coldest territory.

I'm unqualified to give you advice on measuring poverty, but at the Salvation Army we measure the increasing numbers of people looking for assistance with food, rent, heat, electricity, addiction recovery, clothing, and for children's needs, such as boots for school or a few days at camp so they can see there's another world besides poverty and being hungry. But at the centre, the hardest part is that we think we're somewhere on a continuum of care for the poor and homeless. Our frustration is that this continuum is full of holes and barricades. There's no plan and there are no measurements, no light at the end of the tunnel, just more tunnel.

You know the saying: you cannot manage what you cannot measure. My history has been in business, except for the last two and a half years with the Salvation Army. I'm very frustrated that there are very few measurement systems we can come up with. You are unfortunately the people who can choose to come up with a national measurement system that is not politically or geographically motivated. It's not one way in one province, and another way in another province.

As for partnering, this national anti-poverty strategy will not be successful without true partnerships with organizations like the Salvation Army, the YMCA, the United Way, and many others across the country. These and other service providers have the most cost-effective way of doing things.

This strategic plan must include regular and consistent increases in resources—not just money—given to service providers. Solving this national poverty problem cannot and must not be left to service providers like the Salvation Army and the YMCA, who have been fighting for resources and funding for programs at every turn. From my personal meetings with providers in this city throughout this past winter, we have all been working with one hand tied behind our backs, having suffered for years from funding cuts and funding freezes. We have gone five or six years without a funding increase. We at the Salvation Army requested support from the province four years ago to operate a men's supported housing program. We have been told, for all this time, there's no money. So how can we possibly extend the continuum of care without a strategic plan that provides regular, consistent funding designed to accomplish something, not just carry the status quo?

It's simply embarrassing when the majority of our own employees are paid incomes below the poverty line. So how long can we continue this, not just the Salvation Army but also other service providers? Or do these individuals become the next victims of Canada's not having a plan to eliminate poverty?

I can only hope and pray, ladies and gentlemen, that you will have the courage and fortitude to force this issue to the forefront as one of the critical changes this country requires.

Thank you.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Robert.

We're now going to move to Paul, from the United Way. The floor is yours, sir.

2:45 p.m.

Paul Shakotko Manager, Neighbourhood Change, United Way of Halifax Region

Thank you very much. I appreciate being here.

I appreciate everything Robert said. Hopefully I can provide some specific examples from the United Way perspective on what we are trying to do to alleviate poverty and on a number of issues in our communities.

In particular, I want to talk about two initiatives: place-based initiatives, which are geographic neighbourhood initiatives, and informational services initiatives, such as 211.

Most people are familiar with the United Way's name. We're in the business of trying to build stronger communities. We've been doing it for 80 years. We currently fund 55 agencies in Halifax Regional Municipality, and we invest $5.8 million annually into this economy.

We realize, like you, that issues such as poverty are tremendously complex, so much so that we refer to them as wicked problems. They're wicked problems in the sense that a lot of the symptoms are interconnected, people are interconnected, and no one solution, in our mind, is going to be the silver bullet. It has to be a collage or mosaic of opportunities to try to address the issues of poverty.

You may be pleased to know--I'm not sure if someone else has raised it today, but maybe Tanis will--that by some measures, poverty has been decreasing a little bit in Halifax. In the last 10 years, there are 20% fewer households living in poverty. However, we also know that there are serious issues pertaining to living in Halifax.

For example, in 1960 only 2% of the population here lived alone. As of the last census period, that's upwards of 40% in our neighbourhoods. We also know that the gap between the lowest income percentiles and the upper income percentiles is increasing. This income disparity is becoming worse in communities where poverty is concentrated. Back in the sixties, we would have had one area in Halifax as the central core that would have been considered poverty. Now we have four or five cores. I think this is very similar to what's going on in other communities across Canada.

So how are we to deal with income disparity, isolation, and poverty? The United Way has taken on a type of leadership lens that looks at working through place-based communities. It's new language, but it's probably familiar language for most of you. We call it Action for Neighbourhood Change. It was a federal initiative that was started actually quite a while ago and is now carried on by several United Ways. The reason I raise it is that it's having some traction here as a specific project that's trying to alleviate disparity in the communities.

What is place-based work? You work intensely with residents. You work in a specific locale for at least three to five years. You get neighbour to know neighbour in such a way that when people get to know each other, their neighbourhoods get safer. People are more active. They are places that people actually want to live in. It's really about working with residents, inspiring change they want to see, and then providing support for those changes. You have to repeat this often, and you have to keep moving on to another neighbourhood.

As I mentioned, it's also long term. The United Way has made a commitment to every single neighbourhood that we work in that it's three to five years. The time commitment is a challenge, especially when it comes to funding or government support. Typically a project like place-based work is done in one to three years. We know that's not enough. You've got to go longer term.

Place-based work is also not new. We call it grassroots initiatives, neighbourhood community building, comprehensive community initiatives; CCIs is another language out there. They're all very similar. But I think in Canada there's a bit of a national movement now for place-based work because it seems to be working. Vancouver, Regina, Winnipeg, Toronto, Thunder Bay, and Montreal are all great case examples, and Halifax as well.

What's working is that by getting residents to come out and empowering them to take control over what's going on in their communities, we're actually getting a lot more community leaders. We're actually getting residents who live in communities wanting to start addressing their own issues, such as isolation, or income disparity, or the seniors issue. With the increasing population of seniors in Nova Scotia, many are starting to look to their own communities for these solutions, and it's working.

I can give you some examples from Spryfield and Dartmouth North a bit later.

Given that we have five minutes, I'll move on to the second topic, which we think has some good traction in dealing with poverty. That's a very different service from place-based work. It's an informational service and it's called 211, which is single-point access for people to dial up when they need help.

We know that issues are complex, they're overwhelming, and they're typically intertwined. Simple calls for help typically get bogged down in a mosaic of different phone lines and different agencies. The United Way believes that 211, a one-dial service with a voice on the end, can actually help break down a lot of these barriers. The 211 line is currently active in British Columbia, and I believe it's active in Ontario and Quebec. They seem to be having great success at linking those people who need service with the services very quickly. United Way is advocating for 211 in Nova Scotia. We don't have it yet, but we hope to have it soon.

What are we asking of you? Please think about place-based work as a real chance to address some of the issues related to poverty at the neighbourhood level. A lot of the work was started by the federal government many years ago and can be carried on again.

We also ask that you support the 211 initiative. We think this is a great opportunity to start linking people provincially with a lot of the services that are available.

Thank you very much.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Paul.

We're now going to move to Tanis, who is coming to us from the YWCA. Thank you for being here.

2:50 p.m.

Tanis Crosby Executive Director, YWCA Halifax

Thank you. It's my pleasure. It's great seeing some local faces around the table.

YWCA is a national and international movement. Many of you are probably already familiar with our work. In Halifax we have outcome areas from child care to housing, from financial literacy to youth empowerment. We serve one million young women and families annually in 200 communities across this country.

Our recommendations to you focus on that first-hand knowledge of serving over one million Canadians annually. We see these as first voices represented at this table as well as the hat of a service provider trying to meet their needs.

I want to share with you some examples of what is working within the sphere of education. We know that education is a most significant factor in determining income. We also know that we're going to need to position ourselves strategically in order to fare well in this new global climate. How do we make sure we have the right educated matches with where our economy needs to go, that at the same time can support lifting individuals who are most at risk out of poverty? We have some local solutions for you.

The first is local-based training programs, employment training programs for those who have experienced multiple barriers to unemployment. HRSDC has been a strong partner in these programs, of course, and now with a service exchange with the province, we work with both partners in delivering these programs.

One fine example was a women in transition program that the YWCA launched some 25 years ago. One of the graduates, Wanda Hill, a single mother of two young children at the time, was just two weeks away from having her employment insurance run out and then she would have been faced with income assistance. She was able to get a referral to our employment training program. She completed the program. She became employed by the YWCA, and 21 years later she is our housing program manager. That's just one example of success.

This program trained hundreds of women, with a 98% successful employment rate at the end of the program. I wanted to give you this example from 25 years ago to show you the return on investment for community-based employment programs. They are an essential component to a poverty reduction strategy.

Fast-forwarding 25 years, YWCA Halifax has implemented a new version of this type of employment program, focusing on those who have the most significant barriers to employment. The employment program we have is called LAUNCH. It's for young women who have experienced multiple and significant barriers to employment. Some 80% of our participants had not graduated from high school; 80% were single mothers. They all left the program with a job or with a school plan, to register for post-secondary education.

These are just examples of the local assets, the local solutions to make sure that we are working towards the global strategy of a poverty reduction strategy.

One of our challenges, as well, is funding. The women In transition program was cut in the mid-nineties. Everything is project-funded now. Our first employment program, while it was renewed in 2005-06, was then not renewed because of funding. Each contract is renewed for a 52-week period. We can't sustain traction with respect to keeping our talented staff or to continuing to serve the clients who are turning to us more and more. So funding agreement challenges are significant in order to maintain the momentum of really making progress towards alleviating and preventing poverty.

The second issue, again in the theme of education, is affordable housing. Affordable housing cross-cuts with education. In Nova Scotia we have among the highest tuition rates in Canada. We also have some of the highest rates of single mothers in Canada. In fact, in order for a single mother to access education, she needs to put her family at risk of homelessness. In Halifax, research indicates that a single mother has an income gap of $300 a month in order to pursue post-secondary education. So ironically, a single mother has to put her family at risk of homelessness in order to secure education that will lead to income security and alleviation of poverty across intergenerational lines.

In 2006-07 we were able to secure funding from the then SCPI program. We secured a capital grant, we secured a small apartment building, and for just over a year now we've been offering affordable supportive housing for single mothers so they can pursue education. It's now supported by United Way.

This is another example, a community-based solution, of how we can support those who need it the most to get the education they need, to combat intergenerational poverty, and enable women to get the skills they need to break that cycle of poverty for themselves and their families. Seventy-five per cent of the women in this program have experienced family violence. We've been able to help women who have been homeless get an education. These are the kinds of solutions we need more of across Canada, so keeping the HPI program is an absolute essential component to reducing poverty and enabling people to access education.

Other recommendations include recognizing that early learning is a core component to alleviating and preventing poverty. We know in Halifax, for example, through the Understanding the Early Years project, that upwards of two-thirds of the community in Spryfield is a core area of concern, and that half of those children are not school-ready and will never catch up. How are we to gain traction on alleviating and preventing poverty if a significant subset of our population does not have the social and development skills or framework to have success at school?

We know that research after research will point to the fact that early learning is a must for lifelong learning, and we know that early learning is a means by which women can participate in the workforce. Early childhood education is a means to develop our economy and a means to prevent and alleviate poverty.

In sum—I know I've gone over my time—I didn't speak to financial literacy, but perhaps I can speak to that later. We need to look at the horizontal policy alignment within the federal government. The poorest of the poor are women. They are disabled women. They are aboriginal women. They are older women. If we're going to gain traction on a poverty reduction strategy, it needs to have a gender lens. And in order to achieve progress on poverty reduction, we need to have a women's equality mandate in our country, which means restoring research and advocacy within the Status of Women Canada mandate, funding those areas of priority, because we can't achieve poverty alleviation without achieving women's equality. And we can't achieve women's equality or poverty reduction if we don't align government policies and programs to achieve those mutual ends.

Thank you very much for this opportunity.

3 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Tanis.

We're now going to start the first round of seven minutes of questions and answers, followed by another round of five minutes.

If you need translation, on number one there's English. I know that Madam Beaudin will be speaking in French to you.

We're going to start over here with Mr. Savage. You have seven minutes, sir.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you very much, Chair.

And thank you to the three of you. Those were very good, very strong presentations. I appreciate that.

I'll come at it all little bit differently in this one.

As MPs, we deal with a lot of issues so that sometimes we kind of throw our hands up and say, I can't do anything for this person. We have three organizations of people here that I, as an MP, and others have turned to and been able to know that people are being helped. Certainly the Y, through the great leadership of Tanis here in town, has been strong on a whole bunch of the issues you mentioned, and then some.

The Salvation Army we all know. I just want to a say a word about Sean Furey, who works for you on the Dartmouth side. There is no more diligent, passionate, persistent supporter of community initiatives, particularly for those who need help, than Sean Furey over on the Dartmouth side. If you think you're going to hide from him when it comes time to do the kettle, you better think again, buddy, because he'll find you. And the Salvation Army does a great deal of work.

Paul, I got a chance to meet with you and talk about the work you do, and I wonder if you could elaborate on what you did in Spryfield and now what you're doing in Dartmouth North. Can you take us through that process and maybe how you measure success in a place like Spryfield, which is an area you've done work in already.

3 p.m.

Manager, Neighbourhood Change, United Way of Halifax Region

Paul Shakotko

I'll see what I can do with that. Maybe I'll preface my answer by saying that when I first started doing this work, I was a manager out west in a municipal government. When I first came over to the not-for-profit sector, I actually said there's no way this neighbourhood work can do it. It's not scalable, there's not enough leverage, it doesn't have enough partnerships or pull. Now that I've been doing this work for nearly five years, I can tell you that I was wrong.

The successes have had quite an impact. Spryfield is a community of great strength. It also has some serious issues around crime. The way we looked at the work was that the United Way believes everyone has something to contribute and everyone can offer help. We believe in community.

We started doing the work by having lots of small meetings, getting people to come out, people just like you, Mike, to come on out. We'd say, if you've always wanted to do something, what would that be? Then we'd provide support to you to get it going. It could be emotional support or connections to other people, or maybe financial. Pretty soon you wind up getting a whole bunch of new connections in the community, things you wouldn't typically expect. Typically, we thought about things like collective kitchens for cooking or people coming together to clean up graffiti. That all occurred, but what was really interesting was that there were great connections made with the business commission. Residents wanted to improve the economic standing of the community and create more work opportunities, so they partnered with the business commission and did their own Spryfield business case.

There were a whole bunch of projects: a community garden that's still going on today and has now moved on to composting, graffiti programs that are sustainable. The residents and businesses got together, put money into a pot, and now they actually pull the money immediately out of the pot to address graffiti right away. So we've had some great success in Spryfield. Ninety per cent of that's attributed to the residents doing the work; we just provided the opportunity for them to get going.

You mentioned Dartmouth North. We're using very similar principles to what we used in Spryfield--we hire local, we are local, we do local work. We're doing that in Dartmouth North. It's the same thing; residents are coming forward. Typically these are people who have always wanted to do something but just needed that little extra to get going. There are three groups of youth who have come together--one to do a dance class together, one group to do computers, and one group to do youth afternoons. These all sound like individual programs, but what's significant is that all three are carrying on under their own initiative. All it took was a little bit of push and support by the United Way, and then they carry on.

These have a tremendous impact on local youth in the neighbourhood, from whom we hear time and time again, “You're never going to get me out, because it doesn't make a difference, and whatever you do is not going to help me in the long term.” I think the neighbourhood work is actually proving to them that there are lots of opportunities there.

I don't know if that answers your question, Mike.

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I think it did. It gets to the nature of the work you do.

Traditionally the way we've developed cities, it seems to me, has entrenched poverty in that we put what has traditionally been called the affordable housing, the low-income housing, all in one area, and then we forget about it, dust our hands off and say we've taken care of that. Then we're surprised that people aren't as proud of that community as they might be, or that crime would be generated in that community.

We heard last night at the forum that some of us had a chance to go to about something I was not aware of--others may have been. In Boston, Mayor Thomas Menino led a plan that 10% of any new condominiums had to be for, as I understood it, low-income housing, which means that you're integrating people who may be from different financial backgrounds, but they have a chance to work together, live together, understand each other, without the stigma of being in an affordable housing area.

I know that in Dartmouth North, Paul, people have been irritated about development. They're proud of the community they have, but they haven't had the opportunity to express it. I just wonder if any of you have a thought about the approach to housing that we've had versus how we should do it.

3:05 p.m.

Executive Director, YWCA Halifax

3:05 p.m.

Manager, Neighbourhood Change, United Way of Halifax Region

Paul Shakotko

I hear Tanis inhaling over there. Would you like Tanis to have a crack at that one first?

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Yes.