Evidence of meeting #58 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-56.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Corinne Pohlmann  Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Carole Presseault  Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
Ross Creber  President, Direct Sellers Association of Canada
Richard Phillips  Executive Director, Grain Growers of Canada
Kristin Ego MacPhail  Canadian Young Farmers, Representative, Grain Growers of Canada
Lynda Rose  As an Individual
Ferne Downey  National President, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
Stephen Waddell  National Executive Director, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
Laurell Ritchie  National Representative, Canadian Auto Workers Union
Don Friedlander  President , Canadian Dental Association
Barbara Byers  Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress
Andrew Jackson  Chief Economist, Canadian Labour Congress
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Georges Etoka

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. This is Meeting No. 58 on Tuesday, November 24. On the agenda, in accordance with the Order of Reference of Thursday, November 5, 2009, is the study of Bill C-56, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

Before hearing our witnesses, however, I would like to extend a very warm welcome to the students from UQAM, where I taught courses a very long time ago.

Welcome to the House of Commons.

I would also like to commend our colleague, Tony Martin, for his presentation this morning and the motion that was agreed to by the other members.

Next, before we really start, let me ask you about a bit of business that we have to do. It won't take long. It has to do with the operational budget request. Actually, it concerns the people who are in front of us. They're here already, but we have to pay for their tickets.

I'm tabling the following motion before this committee:

That the proposed budget in the amount of $7,600 for Bill C-56, an act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be adopted.

The proposed budget is $7,600.

Is there any discussion?

Mr. Savage.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

If we deny this, does that mean they have to pay for their flights themselves?

3:35 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

It means that they go back and they don't get a chance to say anything.

Is there any discussion on this? I don't think there will be any.

Actually, it's for four witnesses to come in from Toronto--at $1,500 each, would you believe--and for two witnesses to come in from Montreal, at $300 each. It only costs me about $30 when I drive up, but anyway....

Shall I call for a vote, or is this unanimous?

All in agreement?

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you very much.

We will have two groups of witnesses this afternoon. The first group is here with us until 4:30 p.m., and the second group will follow immediately.

I'd like to welcome, from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, Madam Corinne Pohlmann, vice-president of national affairs; from the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada, Madam Carole Presseault, vice-president of government and regulatory affairs; from the Direct Sellers Association of Canada, Mr. Ross Creber; and from the Grain Growers of Canada, Mr. Richard Phillips, executive director, along with Madam Kristin Ego MacPhail, a Canadian Young Farmers' Forum representative.

You each have seven minutes to do your presentations. I suggest we hear from all of you first. Once you've made your presentations, we will go around to the various members on both sides of the table and give them time to ask you questions.

For the students—I think most of them are women—who are here this afternoon, I would simply like to point out that we have on one side the government members and on the other the opposition members, which means the Liberals, the Bloc members and the New Democrats.

Madam Pohlmann, you'll begin the presentation.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Corinne Pohlmann Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Thank you, and good afternoon.

Thank you for the opportunity to be here to present the perspective of CFIB on Bill C-56.

Over the next few minutes, I'm going to walk you through a slide deck, which you should have a copy of.

You should also have a copy of a report called A Nation of Entrepreneurs, which uses census data to explore the prevalence of self-employment in Canada.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Excuse me, Ms. Pohlmann.

Mr. Lessard?

3:35 p.m.

Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

Thank you.

You should have those two documents I'll be walking you through.

On the first slide, you'll see a little bit about CFIB. We represent more than 105,000 independently owned small and medium-sized business owners across Canada, all of whom are self-employed. Our members come from every region of the country and every sector of the economy. While all 105,000 members are technically self-employed, about 12,000 actually have no paid help.

According to the most recent labour force survey, which you'll see on the next slide, from Statistics Canada, there were over 2.7 million self-employed Canadians, which represents about 16% of the current workforce. The numbers actually went up since September, partially offsetting some of the job losses in that same month. In fact, there has been an increase of more than 100,000 self-employed Canadians in the past 12 months, which is an increase of 3.9%. We see this as good news, as many of these Canadians have opted to go out on their own, and it is from these enterprising individuals that new ventures and jobs will be created.

In fact, Canada, if you look at the next slide, has seen significant growth in self-employment over the last couple of decades, especially among those who are incorporated. The chart on slide 4 is drawn from the 2006 census, which shows that while there was an 8.5% increase in employees between 2001 and 2006, there was an 18.6% increase in the incorporated self-employed during the same period.

Who are these people? Today, about two-thirds of self-employed are men, and about one-third are women. Growth in female self-employment grew dramatically during the 1980s and 1990s, far more quickly than among men, but this pace of growth seems to have slowed somewhat during the first half of this decade. It remains healthy, though, with the growth of 8.4% among female self-employed versus 6.5% growth for male self-employed during the same period. This is all outlined in much more detail in the document A Nation of Entrepreneurs.

As you can see on slide 5, the greatest growth of self-employed is among those in the age group 45 to 64 years. This is partly due to the demographic shift in the boomer population, and partly because successful business creation often requires significant technical and management skills, as well as good networks often gained through work experience. As a result, I would suggest that among the special benefits included in Bill C-56 there could be the option to access sickness benefits, which may be a greater attraction to the self-employed, given the age and demographics of this population and the difficulty for some of them to purchase private health care coverage.

So why do people do it? Slide 6 shows the results of a national public opinion poll of 900 small business owners and the reasons why they become self-employed. As you can see, the majority did it to take control of their own decisions. One-third did it for lifestyle choices, to better use their skills and knowledge, or as a path to financial freedom.

These results are not surprising when you couple them with the next slide, which shows that those who are self-employed tend to have the highest levels of job satisfaction. In fact, more than half said they found being self-employed to be very rewarding. Why am I sharing this with you? Because I want to make it clear that the vast majority of people becoming self-employed become self-employed because they want to, not because they have to. Recognizing this is important to understanding how they might approach the idea of accessing EI special benefits on a voluntary basis as proposed in Bill C-56.

We did in fact ask our members earlier this year about the concept of extending EI parental maternity benefits to the self-employed on a voluntary basis. Slide 8 outlines how the question was asked at the time, given how little we knew how about how this proposal would work. While the question focused only on parental maternity benefits, it did address the voluntary aspect of the bill, and therefore I believe it does provide a good indication of what Canada's self-employed may think about Bill C-56.

The next slide shows the results, which are based on more than 10,000 responses to this question. As you can see on the left-hand side, a small majority support the concept, 35% oppose it, 9% are undecided, and 3% have no interest in the issue. When we dissect the data further, we see strong support among female self-employed members, with 67% supporting the concept, and among the smallest business owners, with 60% of those with fewer than five employees also supporting it.

As a result of this member feedback, CFIB supports this bill and recognizes that it fills a gap among the self-employed to access EI special benefits when they choose to do so. However, it is essential that the program remain voluntary and that it meets its objective to be self-financed. These principles are key to CFIB's support of this bill.

It's very important for this program to pay for itself, as the general EI account is about to enter a period of steep premium increases come 2011. I do want to say that the current EI rate freeze, which is in effect until the end of 2010, has been a very welcome policy. It has allowed many business owners to hold onto their people during a difficult economic period. However, it has become clear that the government plans to charge back the two-year EI rate freeze to the EI account, which would require the new Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board to pay back an additional $10 to $13 billion to the government, with interest. The only way they can do that is through increasing EI premiums. As they are limited to annual increases of 15¢ for employees and 21¢ for employers, we foresee maximum premium increases for both employers and employees for many years to come, as illustrated on slide 10.

What makes this whole scenario even more frustrating is that there has been a $57-billion surplus accumulated in the EI account from 1994 to 2008. We would have no objection to the government's requiring the CEIFB to pay for the additional EI costs as a result of the current recession if they would repay the $57 billion surplus first. Instead, the new Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board was provided with $2 billion as an initial reserve that, given the scenario I just described, will be easily wiped out in the first year.

We strongly believe that the federal government has a moral obligation to pay back the surplus accumulated from employers and employees. To do this, the government should absorb additional costs and maintain a premium rate freeze until the $57 billion has been paid back over time.

Given this scenario, it would be unacceptable to add even more costs to the Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board by subsidizing Bill C-56 through the general EI account. Nor would it be acceptable for the self-employed to wind up subsidizing the general EI account, given the problems it currently faces. As a result, CFIB is calling for strong metrics and regular monitoring of the voluntary EI special benefits program for the self-employed, so that this does not happen. It should be accounted for separately from the general EI account, and premiums for the self-employed should be adjusted accordingly so that it remains self-financed.

In conclusion, the CFIB supports Bill C-56 as long as it remains voluntary and self-financed. There should be strong metrics attached to the program. This means that there should be regular reviews of its costs and revenues and that premiums should be adjusted accordingly, so as not to have it subsidizing the larger EI account and vice versa. We recommend that the bill be analyzed in the context of the skyrocketing EI rates that are coming in 2011.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you very much, Ms. Pohlmann.

I will now turn things over to Ms. Pressault.

3:40 p.m.

Carole Presseault Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

Madam Chair and distinguished members of the Committee, we thank you for giving the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada the opportunity to add its voice to those of the many individuals and organizations in Canada that support Bill C-56, which provides for the payment of special Employment Insurance benefits to self-employed workers, that is, parental benefits and maternity, sickness and compassionate benefits.

Permit me to remind the committee members that CGA Canada represents 73,000 certified general accountants and students. You'll find our members and our students in industry, finance, government, and public practice. They are respected accounting and financial management professionals. CG Canada was founded over 100 years ago, and our role is to establish designations, certification requirements, and professional standards. We also offer professional development. We conduct research and advocacy and represent our members nationally and internationally.

Bill C-56 is an important piece of legislation for Canadians and for CGA Canada and its members. My colleague Madam Pohlmann has given an excellent description of the sector. We recognize the role that self-employed Canadians play in advancing investment, job creation, productivity, innovation, and expertise.

We know from the data that the numbers continue to increase. There are about 200,000 professional accountants in Canada, and approximately one in five is self-employed. Bill C-56 has a direct impact on this group of self-employed professionals, whether they're owners of accounting practices or other small businesses, consultants, tax advisers, management information technologists, or specialists in human resources.

In the past few years, CGA-Canada has seen a large increase in its membership, particularly women. Approximately 60% of graduates today are women. It is therefore perfectly natural from the standpoint of self-employed women, who face many challenges as mothers and in many cases the person responsible for taking care of their families, that our organization would take an interest in ways of improving the Employment Insurance regime and making EI benefits more accessible.

Our members were consulted a few years back, and the results showed that because they are not entitled to maternity benefits, self-employed women often wait to start a family because of their professional responsibilities. Others, meanwhile, wait until their children are grown to build their own career. And down the road, even though self-employed women cannot afford to take care of their aging parents, they have no choice.

Bill C-56 eliminates the difference between the families of employees and the self-employed, whereas everyone faces the same responsibilities and problems.

It is a question of equity. For the very first time, self-employed workers in Canada will have access to Employment Insurance and will have the option of contributing to the plan and receiving the same special benefits as those who are employed. This will enable them to meet their family responsibilities without having to make a choice.

CGA-Canada has long advocated on matters that are in the public's interest. Providing greater financial security and income protection to more individuals at this time is in the best interests of all Canadians.

We also believe that it's not just an issue of extending benefits to allow self-employed workers to opt into EI benefits; it's about making measurable improvements to the existing system so that these new entrants are brought into a strengthened EI system. But how do we accomplish this task? How do we improve the system and at the same time ensure that the framework is economically viable and does not place an undue burden on the government, employers, and employees who pay into the system? That is indeed a tall order.

CGA-Canada would be remiss if we did not offer a cautionary note. We understand that the government expects that the plan will be self-financing, although it can offer no guarantees since the program is voluntary and its sustainability depends on the uptake. In effect, this means that a deficit situation may be possible, or one that is less than break even. Some concerns have been expressed that this could put pressure on government finances and/or have a detrimental impact on EI premiums, where rates could increase.

Madame la présidente and members of the committee, thank you for your time this afternoon. We look forward to participating in the question-and-answer period.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you, Madam Presseault.

I'll now give the floor to Mr. Ross Creber, from the Direct Sellers Association of Canada.

3:45 p.m.

Ross Creber President, Direct Sellers Association of Canada

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

I prefer Madam Chairperson, if you don't mind.

3:50 p.m.

President, Direct Sellers Association of Canada

Ross Creber

I'm sorry.

Madam Chairperson and honourable members, on behalf of the Direct Sellers Association, I want to thank you for the opportunity to comment on Bill C-56, the Fairness for the Self-Employed Act.

I have with me today Lynda Rose, vice-president of sales and marketing for Mary Kay Cosmetics, and immediate past chairman of the Canadian Direct Sellers Association.

Since 1954, the Direct Sellers Association of Canada has established and upheld rigorous standards, ethics, and good business practices as the recognized voice of our industry. As an industry that connects more than 1.3 million Canadians to entrepreneurial opportunity and enrichment, we provide an assurance of member integrity and a foundation of trust for independent sales contractors and consumers.

Our 45 member companies, which include such well-known names as Amway, Mary Kay, Avon, and Tupperware, and their independent sales contractors market and distribute a wide range of products and services directly to consumers, usually but not exclusively in the consumer's home rather than in traditional retail establishments. Generally, these products and services are sold in the context of group presentations known as the party plan, or on a personal consultation basis. I know that some of you joined us last week at a parliamentary reception where many of our companies showcased their products and services.

Direct selling contributes significantly to the Canadian economy. Our labour pool includes some 3,900 permanent employees and, importantly for today's deliberations, over one million independent sales contractors who earned an estimated $1.1 billion in income. In a socio-economic impact study conducted by Ernst and Young, the industry's total impact on the Canadian economy, when using an income multiplier, was in excess of $1.56 billion.

The direct-selling industry is also a vital part of the small business sector in Canada, investing in entrepreneurial and human capital. Our industry has a tremendous capacity to create jobs and to promote entrepreneurial activity amongst Canadians.

We provide accessible business opportunities, with little or no investment, that are open to all Canadians, without any restrictions with respect to gender, age, education, knowledge, or previous experience. The socio-economic study I mentioned earlier also found that that 21% of direct sellers are high-school graduates, 49% have some college or university education, and 27% are college or university graduates.

People enter direct selling for a variety of reasons, including unemployment. The same study found that 11% of direct sellers were unemployed prior to entering the industry.

We are an industry where females play a major role, with 88% of direct sellers being women. Additionally, 81% are married, and 56% worked full-time and 15% worked part-time prior to entering the industry, with 12% representing more than one direct-selling company.

These are some of the reasons why the benefits that would be made available under Bill C-56 are important to us.

The capacity of our industry to create opportunities for self-employment has brought us to recent discussions with HRSDC. We are working with the minister and her department to ensure that these opportunities are available to all and especially to those on regular employment insurance benefits who are considering self-employment.

That is why we are so pleased to be here today to support Bill C-56. Any action to level the playing field between the employed and the self-employed is something we fully support.

It is premature for me to speculate on the potential level of participation we could expect, but we certainly anticipate that this would be appealing to our independent sales contractors should this bill become law. For those who do participate, it is because they will have made a determination that is right for them and for their circumstances. Having that choice available is critical.

Canadians who are self-employed, or those who are considering self-employment, will no longer have to accept that theirs is a lesser option. They can make the choice knowing there is support available for them, as there is for the traditionally employed. This can only be a positive step forward for the self-employed.

We applaud the minister for this measure and we applaud members from all parties who pledge to pass this bill without undue delay.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you very much, Mr. Creber.

We'll now move on to Mr. Richard Phillips of the Grain Growers of Canada.

3:50 p.m.

Richard Phillips Executive Director, Grain Growers of Canada

Thank you, Madam Chairperson, and good afternoon, members of Parliament and guests.

You'll be happy to know that I walked here from the market, so I didn't spend any money on your budget.

My wife Sally and I are originally from a farm at Tisdale, Saskatchewan, where we raised four sons. Currently I am the executive director of the Grain Growers of Canada, and I would like to thank you for the opportunity to be here to speak on this legislation.

With me today and sharing my time in well under seven minutes is Kristin, who is with the Canadian Young Farmers Forum, a member organization of the Grain Growers of Canada.

The Grain Growers represent approximately 80,000 grain, oilseed, and pulse producers from across the country. I would like to share some quick statistics with you and then comment on compassionate leave, while Kristin will talk about young farmers.

Of all farms in Canada, 70% have some off-farm income. There are over 200,000 farms in Canada today. If even 10% of those farms were to take advantage of increased benefits through this bill, that could help encourage another 20,000 young families to stay on the land.

Another reality of life for all farmers is that we are a rapidly aging demographic. In fact, the average Canadian farmer is well over 50 years of age. For many farm families today, caring for our parents is an increasing responsibility. But in many rural communities there may not be access to home care or long-term care. If there is any kind of crisis, we are often called upon to provide short-term care, either in our homes, or we have to go to our parents' homes. In many cases, they're not in our community. Some farms are located quite some distance from a reasonably sized town. This can be very taxing to a family farm, as with one partner away the other has to carry the workload of the farm and provide care for the children.

At this time Kristin will share her thoughts from the perspective of a young farmer.

3:55 p.m.

Kristin Ego MacPhail Canadian Young Farmers, Representative, Grain Growers of Canada

Thank you, Richard.

Good afternoon, members of Parliament and guests. My name is Kristin Ego MacPhail and I would like to thank you for the opportunity to be here to share our thoughts on this legislation.

The mission of the Canadian Young Farmers Forum is to promote the exchange of ideas and to foster collaboration between the young and future farmers of Canada. One focus of our organization is to identify problems encountered by young people looking to become established in agriculture.

My husband Gary and I are young farmers from the Barrie area, where we operate a greenhouse, nursery, and farm market. We have two young children, Sadie, who is three years old, and Ewan, who is three and a half months. Gary and I are both fully self-employed on our farm.

I feel strongly that the extension of EI benefits, like parental and compassionate leave, is a step in the right direction to improving the quality of life for all farm families.

Many young people have moved and continue to move away from agriculture as a profession. One of the things my husband and I considered when deciding if we wanted to farm or not was what supports might be available to us. Gary left his job to join our farm full-time. At that point, we had to give up our access to EI benefits. This was a choice we had to make. We now look at our friends who are employed in other jobs, and when they started their families they had the opportunity to take time off work when their children were born.

On our farm, this program could allow one or both of us to take some time off and hire someone to replace us, even if only for a short term. Maybe not all young farming families would take advantage of this, but at least they would have the opportunity to participate if they chose.

Thank you again for the chance to be here, and I look forward to your questions.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you very much. You may be away from your children, but it's for a good cause.

We'll begin the debate now with Mr. Savage, who has seven minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Chair.

I don't have any debate, but I have a few questions.

I appreciate all of you taking the time, especially Ms. Ego—you've taken time away from your new one.

All parties so far have indicated general support for this bill. The idea of extending EI benefits to the self-employed makes sense. We've had some questions. I'm a little uncertain about the costing of this program. It's been very difficult to get any information out of the government. The minister indicates it's a voluntary program. There are many voluntary programs, but you still plug in numbers and get an estimate. The reason it's important is that the calculation of the premium combined with the uptake of the program has a big impact on whether it's going to be as self-sustaining as we and the minister are hoping.

That might cost money. Ms. Pohlmann mentioned this money isn't coming out of the consolidated revenue fund of the Government of Canada; it's not coming out of general revenues, it's coming out of the EI fund that has been designated as going over to this new EI financing board. It's only $2 billion, and we're probably well over that now, because we've been going through a difficult economic time. There's already a draw on that. An extra five weeks of regular EI benefits was indicated for members. That five weeks was coming out of general revenue, but Bill C-50, which added an extra five to 20 weeks, will come out of the EI fund, and so will this.

After discussions with the officials the other day, they have given us a brief answer here today. If I read it correctly, it indicates that in the first year the fund will have a surplus of $48 million, which makes sense. You have to pay into it for 12 months before you can join. In the first year there will be a net surplus in the fund. By 2014 there will be a $78 million shortfall, if I'm reading this correctly. It could be more, it could be less, but it will have to come from the EI fund, which is a bit of a problem, because it's already very tight.

Ms. Pohlmann and perhaps Ms. Presseault, how much of a concern is that?

3:55 p.m.

Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

That would be a major concern, given the state of the Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board account starting in 2011. As I indicated on one of the slides, we know that EI premium rates are going to be increasing dramatically come 2011. If we're adding yet another cost to the system, I think there would be less support for this, because it means everybody is going to be paying more, including the self-employed.

I think it's important that this be self-financed. I think there have to be ways we can look at it. I agree, we were skeptical about what the costs were going to be, and I recognize that it may not be easy to figure that out until you go through a process. It's unclear how many small-business owners who are self-employed are going to take up this program.

I agree. That would be a concern to us.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Do you have anything to add to that?

4 p.m.

Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

Carole Presseault

I would just reinforce that this is the first time we've heard and seen these numbers, and it's certainly a concern to us to see that by 2014 we'd have quite a significant deficit of $78 million. I think some of the things we could see this committee doing would be monitoring and reporting this on a regular basis and keeping tabs on it, because we need to know where we're going. It's surprising that the numbers are just coming out now.

I know the minister indicated in testimony here that it would be reviewed in about five years. I would suggest that five years may be too far down the road. I suggest we do a serious review in three years to be able to assess where we are at and what the future looks like.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

You share my concern.

Again, we want to support this bill. We think this could be a step forward. But it's very unusual to have a bill presented to Parliament and go through the parliamentary process up to this point without being given a cost estimate. It seems it was only because this committee insisted on some rigour to the numbers that we got that. I hope that won't be a problem. I hope we will have some regular monitoring.

We'll find a way to trigger that balance between premiums. As you know, the self-employed will be paying the same premium as employed people are. In essence, the government is picking up the employer premium. An employee is paying the full rate as a regular employee, but doesn't get access to regular benefits—only the parental, maternal, sickness, and compassion.

Mr. Creber, thank you for your visit to the Hill last week. I know all parliamentarians enjoyed meeting with the direct sellers. Much appreciated.

As you would know, to trigger benefits, there needs to be a $6,000 income in the previous year. What percentage of direct sellers would make over $6,000? Would it be virtually all of them, or a percentage?

4 p.m.

President, Direct Sellers Association of Canada

Ross Creber

I'm glad you asked that question, because although we haven't surveyed our members specifically, based on a survey by the Direct Selling Association in the United States, about 26% of their membership would qualify under this particular--

4 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Would or wouldn't?

4 p.m.

President, Direct Sellers Association of Canada

Ross Creber

They would qualify for that, because their survey was done based on those who earned over $10,000, as opposed to earning over $6,000. We feel that our numbers and demographics are very similar, so we believe that probably 25% of our membership could be eligible for this.