Human Resources Committee on May 14th, 2012

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Very well. Thank you.

Mr. Cleary has the rest of my time.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you.

I have a question for Ms. Steeves.

You mentioned in your opening about how new hires aren't job-ready, and you listed three challenges: pace of the technology and keeping up with technology; essential skills; and business skills.

To cut to the chase, why aren't new hires job-ready? When they leave trade school, are they ready to walk into the job? Is there a problem with the education?

[Jennifer Steeves]

I think there are a couple of things.

When people leave the training system, they have the foundational skills. They may not necessarily have training on the new technology in the shop for vehicle diagnostics and repair. That would come with workplace training, for sure. But I think employers are seeing a challenge with those foundational skills and some lack of consistency in those.

For example, electronics is huge in our industry. As I was saying, most of the technology advancements relate to electronics and engine fuel systems. If somebody coming in does not have a really strong foundation in reading a wiring diagram, for example, the complex diagrams and electronics they're going to be facing as new vehicles continue to roll out will be staggering. So if they don't have that foundation in the layered complexity, they just won't be able to keep up.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Is the answer more on-the-job training? What's the answer here to make sure your students are ready to walk into the job?

[Jennifer Steeves]

I think there are a couple of things.

One thing is having information about what new technologies are coming down the pipe. I think that's hugely important, because if you know what that is, you can put the skills lens to it and look at what skills are going to be needed to respond. That information could then be communicated to educators, to the training systems, so those young people or those people coming out of the training system would have those foundational skills. That's a really important piece. When I talk about labour market information, I include technology, because people's skills have to respond to technology, and people have to have those good, strong foundations.

As well, there are instances of people already out there working in the industry whose literacy, numeracy, and critical-thinking skills just haven't kept pace with the demands of their industry, and that situation is a challenge for an employer.

For example, I got an e-mail from an employer who said he had a 57-year-old guy who's worked for him for 30 years and who just can't keep up, and he doesn't know what to do. He needs him. He doesn't want to get rid of him, but he can't give him the complex diagnostic work. It has to go to somebody else. So how does he, as an employer, keep him in the industry? How does he figure this out? We've been helping this gentleman with some essential skills assessments and some of that kind of work.

There's no easy answer, but I think there needs to be an understanding of the technology. There needs to be a mechanism to communicate that. There needs to be an ongoing dialogue with employers about research on new technologies that are coming, as well as the skills that will be needed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Your time is well up.

We appreciate the responses to the questions.

We'll move to Mr. Mayes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

In my local community, the college campus partnered with the school district and actually had eight grade 12 students go with a contractor and build a home right from the foundation up. It was a really interesting project, and they were actually accredited as first-year apprentices. Out of those eight, six were offered jobs in Vancouver—I live in the interior—because there was a high demand.

Is there any work being done to try to capture the students in high school and get them interested? The good thing is they'd have the exposure, and if they didn't like it then they'd realize it wasn't for them. Otherwise they wait until they're 26, because a lot of them can't find a job anywhere else and they decide they're going to go into a trade, and they really don't know what trade they want to go into, and they're just sort of doing things ad hoc. I was wondering if there was any effort at all to try to link up the training with the school districts, between the high schools and the industry.

The sponsor of this was the local college. The local construction association went together on this with the school district, and it's been very successful. I was just wondering if you've had any experience in that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Go ahead, Ms. Steeves, and then we'll work our way across.

[Jennifer Steeves]

Yes, there are examples of that kind of partnership happening. I chaired a pilot project a couple of years ago. It was called the education sector council partnership project, where we worked with the Toronto District School Board on exactly what you're talking about. The district school board realized that 60-some percent of their kids weren't going to university or college, and asked how they could address their needs. Local employers were saying they needed people with good skills. This project worked at connecting high schools with local employers, with the school board, and the province to make those connections, to connect those dots. Employers were coming into the schools, they were having more dynamic conversations with the educators and saying what they were looking for.

The teachers, who are challenged with delivering curricula, could say, “Well, this is what we need to deliver. How do we make this real for the kids?” Employers would say, “Bring them in. We'll show them how this is applied. We'll give them copies of workplace documents they need to be able to read when they come in. These are the expectations we have.” Through that, more work experiential opportunities came, some certifications came out of it, and it better prepared young people to say either yes, they'd love to work in that, or just as importantly, no, it's not for them, and they want to go look for something else.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Go ahead.

[David Suess]

Building on that, every province has a youth apprenticeship program in existence. Again, it speaks to the school to start to expose them, start to give them some appetite for what a trade is. Also, there's the understanding of the stakeholder involvements. It's not just education, it's the employers and the labour groups that all have to be around the table to support those things. Even the labour agreements have to be written to incorporate it.

I will say I'm a great supporter of Skills Canada and what they do for this very agenda item.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Could I just address the issue?

I owned a grocery store. We had a full bakery and we had apprentices in the bakery department. They had that challenge of being married, having children, having payments to make, and what not. When they had to leave our employment to upgrade and work through their apprenticeship, they had, of course, the time between EI.... So as an employer, we said, “Okay, we'll just continue your wages,” but we asked them to sign a two-year agreement that they would stay with us after they received their journeyman ticket. That worked for us.

Has there ever been a recommendation to the government to look at, when these employees go out to be trained, the employer picking up the EI, but being reimbursed with the EI payment when it finally shows up?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

That's an interesting idea. What I hear more of is about trying to get employers to take up the top-up program. If they register, then they're allowed to top up their employees' salaries to 95% of their earnings. But employers aren't necessarily aware. As we talk about school-to-work transition, when I speak to high school educators they're telling me, “You have all these employers who are interested in workers, so why can't I find work experience for my tech students?”

There's a real challenge. Educators are here to educate and businesses are here to run a business, and the two don't necessarily meet unless you start to build those bridges. That's really where organizations step in. That's where something like the CARS Council or the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum are able to step in and negotiate some of the connections.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

As far as I'm concerned, as a former businessperson, your greatest resource is the people who work with you and for you. I just wonder if that is some of the problem. Maybe the business community needs to look at their employees as an investment for the long-term sustainability of their business. They might not see instant profit from that apprentice to start with, but in time they are going to see that profit.

Is there any effort to educate business people to that mentality? I'm sure you try to communicate that all the time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Your time is up, but we're willing to take a response to that.

Go ahead.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Part of the what the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum has really been working on for the last four or five years has been primarily around employer engagement, trying to ensure the 50% of skilled trades employers who say they don't really know very much, know more—know that there are connections that they can make to the youth apprenticeship programs, know that there is a return on training investment. We try to provide them with tips and worksheets and a tool kit for learning more about apprenticeship and seeing what the value would be to their business, and by using employer champions we can go to employers who are doing it and saying “It's working for me,” and have employers speaking to employers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

Mr. Suess, make a short comment if you can.

[David Suess]

I think the return on training investment is the vehicle we use to try to communicate to the employer to start thinking about their apprentices differently than as investment hires—just to build on that point.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Cuzner, and we'll conclude with your round.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks very much for your comments.

We had the minister here a number of months ago, and when we questioned her on the eight- to ten-week wait times for EI she was comfortable that people were getting their cheques within 23 days. But the department actually counts both those who get cheques and those who get notices of non-payment. So quite a few of those letters don't have cheques in them; they are notices of non-payment. Some people are not receiving any kind of income at all for an extended period of time. She has now been made aware of that problem, and we expect her to rectify it in a matter of weeks.

I think Mr. Mayes walked us a little closer to recommendations, but I think they are logical. It will be neat to see recommendations like that come forward in this report.

One of the other consistencies we've seen that I think is one of the most frustrating aspects—it denies young people the opportunity to be more mobile—is the mobility of those skills. The Red Seal program works in this country and we should be proud of it, but with training opportunities and apprentice work experience, we're not seeing that continuity.

Is there a particular trade out in front on this that's trying to make a difference? In the absence of a national approach to dealing with apprenticeships, is there a province out there saying.... In the province of Alberta the thirst for workers is significant. Are they dealing with New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, or Newfoundland and saying to their trades-training people, “Bring them to this level, or let's put together some kind of testing protocol so we can help develop this young person together”?

So is there a trade that's doing it well? Is there a province that's doing it well?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Because Alberta has had a need for such a long time, I think they're out in front in terms of thinking about that. They have bilateral agreements with British Columbia and Newfoundland and Labrador to facilitate the movement of apprentices.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

When we get to Alberta we may want to speak with officials from that department on what some of the key components are.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Absolutely.

It tends to be the regulated trades like electricians, for example. They have the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers that regulates the trade quite extensively. It's a safety-related issue as well. So certainly the electrician trade is out ahead in trying to ensure that its members meet standards.

That's not to say they've managed to overcome some of the issues that arise in moving between jurisdictions, because it's still a challenge. There are 13 different systems. Each system has to be looked at individually, and those relationships have to be looked at one by one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Does anyone else wish to make a comment?

Mr. Suess.

[David Suess]

To build on that and round out the work Alberta's doing, the old mentality was “Sorry, we don't recognize your second year. You have to repeat it in this province.” They're coming to the point where they realize, “This little module's different. We need you to pick it up.” So I think there is some progressive thinking out there in Alberta. From my experience, you should definitely talk to them, because they're starting to realize that if they want people to move and fill their needs, they have to be a little more progressive in their thinking.