Human Resources Committee on May 30th, 2012

[Karen Jackson]

Well, it's just to say that the decisions were based upon the multitude of these factors coming together. So every single factor isn't considered on its own. It is bringing them all together.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Could you present us with a copy or a rationale as to how that decision came about?

Do I have time, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Your time is up. I think what we might do is come back to that question. I think we might have a bit of time. I don't know. We could maybe split it between the NDP and.... No? All right.

Pardon?

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

No, but we're happy to meet until 5:15.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Sure.

Mr. McColeman, go ahead.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister, for taking your time today to be with us and to the other individuals who are in support of your being here.

I have a question about prevailing wages. But before I get into that question, I'd really like to give you a good example because I know you know my riding really well, being in the neighbouring riding, and some of the challenges my community has faced over the long term.

I had an experience recently with a contractor, who's a friend, who came to my office and told me about the fact that they had taken on a lot of restoration work. They needed 21 new workers, unskilled, who they were going to train in pointing masonry joints on older buildings, and they were trying to connect to the resources of those individuals who would be willing to take those positions. Their frustration was with just that. It was with the fact that all the methods they had undertaken to that point before coming to see me had been frustrating and had been unsuccessful in filling those jobs.

So there are two points I want to reinforce with the direction you're taking and compliment your ministry on taking these directions. One is removing disincentives from the system, so that people actually say, “That's a good paying job,” which it is, and “I can learn at least a skill out of doing it.” But the matching part of it is so important and I compliment you on addressing that.

The question I'd really like to pose, though, is about prevailing wages, because as both you and I know, there are a lot of temporary foreign workers who come into your riding and my riding, especially through the spring, summer, and fall seasons. I have noticed lately that there's a lot of misinformation circulating on the issue of temporary foreign workers, and in particular, how prevailing wages are calculated and how this new wage schedule will be applied.

Can you please clarify our government's new method for determining prevailing wages for temporary foreign workers and how these measures will help Canadian businesses ensure that labour and skills shortages do not stop Canada's economic recovery?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

The labour shortage and the skills shortage are attributed to a number of things, for example, demographics. The barriers that exist within EI that I discussed with the working while on claim are an example. So when we do bring in temporary foreign workers there is a requirement that employers first try to get Canadians, but if they can't do that, yes, we'll bring in temporary foreign workers. We want to make sure they're treated fairly.

In that past, though, they were paid based on the average wage of that job in that area. Now, for there to be an average, there has to be a high and a low above and beyond that on either side. Unfortunately, many of the people who came in didn't have all the experience in that. They might not have been average in their qualifications. They might have been at the bottom. But the employers were forced to pay the average wage, while Canadians, with the same qualifications, could have been getting much lower. So, unfortunately, employers were being forced to pay temporary foreign workers more in many cases than they were paying Canadians.

We also recognize that the geographic area may have a range of salaries within it. So they may not all pay at the average. They may, in that particular area, pay below. So we've built in some flexibility to say that if employers are bringing in temporary foreign workers, they have the discretion to pay up to 5% less for unskilled workers or up to 15%...for skilled workers, but only if Canadians are in that same pay rate.

So the temporary foreign workers aren't going to be reducing wages. They're going to be matching Canadians instead of being given preferential treatment over Canadians. That's fair. That's fair to Canadians. It's also fairer to the employers who were paying a premium for something they weren't getting.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Right.

In shaping the temporary foreign workers.... In this wage scheme, obviously in consultation, you would have received a lot of feedback from people who have relied on temporary foreign workers to sustain their businesses over time. Could you share with the committee any points of view that were shared with you in terms of these changes to EI—I'm not talking only about this particular change I've asked you about, but other changes to EI—that would incent Canadians to take some of those jobs?

During your consultation process, in some of the feedback you received from those business people operating in the agribusiness in your riding, in my riding, and in many others across Canada, are they giving you solutions to the fact that there are Canadians out there who could be performing these jobs but who are not taking them for some reason, and that we need to do a better job through EI to make sure that they have first dibs on those jobs?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. McColeman.

Minister, if you would summarize and make the answer as short as you can, we could get one other questioner in.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Short answer? Okay.

I've heard a lot of that—that the single biggest barrier has been when the unemployed worker says, “I can't afford to work for you. I'd have to do it for free.” That's why we made the changes to the working while on claim, to allow people to keep 50% of what they make above and beyond their EI.

I was speaking with a fellow recently who owned several hotels. He couldn't get people from his seasonal hotels to do the same job in his winter hotels, because they were on EI and it would have cost them money to go to work. He said he was delighted we were bringing the changes in. Now he'll be able to get the help he needs without the extra expense of temporary foreign workers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that, Minister.

Ms. Charlton, you can use the time or share it, if you wish.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Lapointe.

I have one quick question about CMHC, especially in light of CMHC's really vital role in affordable housing and with respect to first nations housing.

Minister, you're probably aware that in the 2010-11 Public Accounts, CMHC reported $247.7 million in lapsed funding for, and I quote, “Low-cost loans for new construction projects to eligible First Nations”. Because that seemed like such a huge amount, we followed up. We contacted the department, and we were informed that, quote, “...the amount of lapse should have been reported as $16.3 million”—not $247.7 million, but just $16.3 million.

So an amount of $231.4 million was put in this line when it should have been put under “Advances under the National Housing Act”. That's a quarter-billion dollar error.

Then we followed up with another question, and CMHC responded that they'd made another error two pages later, this time putting another $208 million in the wrong line.

Now, given the role that CMHC plays in programs that are really vital to Canadians, I wonder if you just want to make a comment about how we can have any kind of confidence in how CMHC is managing a portfolio that's literally worth hundreds of billions of dollars.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

CMHC does play a significant role in our economy; as you say, it's hundreds of billions of dollars. Those two situations where the numbers were misreported are very unfortunate. Steps have been taken through the procedures within CMHC to ensure that this does not happen again, because it is not acceptable.

Karen, would you like to add anything?

[Karen Kinsley]

I can say that both those numbers are actually the same issue. It was misclassification from one category to the other. This is under non-budgetary funding, so these are loans and advances that are made to these groups. The non-budgetary total was correct in total, but we had misclassified between two lines.

As the minister has said, we regret and accept our error. We have put procedural improvements in place to ensure that those classification errors do not happen going forward.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I'd love to follow up, Mr. Chair, but I'm going to pass the time to Mr. Lapointe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Go ahead.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Madam Minister, I must admit that I find your conclusions particularly presumptuous, when you say that, under the current employment insurance system, employers would not be able to find workers.

Are your conclusions based on the fact that local employment centres are unable to do the job, or on the fact that regional business people have a complete misunderstanding of the economy in their region? Why would it suddenly not work?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

It often happens that available positions do not appear in the job bank which is managed by my department. Yet this is one of the first websites unemployed workers turn to to look for jobs. The unemployed workers are not aware of which positions are available, and not the employers. Employers are looking for Canadians—

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

You repeated several times that employers were not able to find workers. You said so in that order.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

That is very different. That is why we are going to help unemployed workers find out where the jobs are by informing them.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Let's talk about the rural reality, that is, what is happening in the regions.

An employer has a hardware store, and knows that the maître d'hôtel, for example, cannot work at the hotel during the four winter months. He knows this, but he will not hire him at this point, simply because he does not see what use it would be to train the maître d'hôtel for two months, because he knows that this person will go back to the hotel, since he was trained for that kind of work. The maître d'hôtel will not work in the paint section of the hardware store for four years. It does not work that way.

So in that case, how do you think you can get around that unfortunate situation, which would disadvantage many employers in outlying areas, because the reality is different there?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Monsieur Lapointe.

I think we'll have enough time for the minster to respond to that, and then we'll conclude there. There's some committee business we need to do with respect to the estimates.

When you're done, Minister, that will be the end of your time.

Go ahead.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is true that it could be difficult for some employers. However, you also have to think about workers. In my opinion, any worker would rather have a full-time job, rather than a part-time or seasonal one. So we want to help people find that kind of work. Then, we can help people find either part-time or seasonal work. It is a process, but we have to start with helping people find a job which corresponds to their skills.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

Thank you for that, Minister. We certainly appreciate your appearing, and the department officials as well.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order before we finish the meeting. There is a mistake in the wording of the motion which was tabled yesterday.