Evidence of meeting #55 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employees.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Charles Philippe Rochon  Manager, Labour Law Analysis, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

I will give some overview comments before we hear from our officials.

We have with us today, from the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Lenore Duff, senior director, strategic policy and legislative reform, labour program, and Charles Philippe Rochon, manager, labour law analysis.

As you know, we received a letter from the chair of the finance committee inviting our committee to consider the subject matter of clauses 219 to 232 of Bill C-45. The letter essentially invited our committee, if it deemed appropriate, to provide them with recommendations, including any suggested amendments. We do have with us today Christine Lafrance, who's a legislative clerk, should we need her later on in the meeting.

It's up to this committee in terms of what we propose to do after the hearing. I've looked at the notice of motion from the finance committee. Essentially, they leave it up to us to suggest whether we want any amendments or not. The decision will be theirs as to whether or not the amendments ultimately will be in order and considered in their clause-by-clause consideration of the far larger bill of which this forms a part, and they've referred specifically to us those portions that relate to the Canada Labour Code and specifically the sections that they reference in their motion.

My view was that we would get an overview of those particular clauses from the officials. Then I was suggesting to this committee that we have them go through each of the clauses. Then, in a way that is a bit different from the normal practice, where we have opening rounds, I would leave it up to the members who have questions to put those questions as we go through the clauses, without any particular order. We will recognize a speakers list to go through those questions. If we have time at the end of all of that, we could open it up to some rounds of questions, but it might be more productive if we were to go through it clause by clause and raise any questions.

That is the way I propose to proceed, subject to any further direction of the committee.

Mr. Boulerice, do you have a point?

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Yes, thanks, Mr. Chair.

Maybe I'm a little bit more traditional than you are, or maybe a little bit more conservative—

8:50 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

—but personally I would like to have it in the old way of the rounds to ask questions. That would be my preference.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

You have a preference.

Does anybody else have a comment?

Go ahead, Monsieur Lapointe.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Without necessarily describing myself as conservative, I support my colleague's position. I would be more comfortable if the question period was organized in a more traditional way.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

I'll explain why I thought we should proceed in the first way, the way that I suggested. It's simply from the point of view that this is closer to a clause-by-clause situation than a traditional witness situation, where you have questions flowing by rounds. From the point of view of the officials, it might be easier if we had some pointed questions relevant to the area or the clause that they're dealing with, but I'm not fixated on that. It's just the way I had discussed it with the clerk and thought we might go, but I might hear from others.

Go ahead, Mr. McColeman.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

I'm in full agreement with your procedure. It actually shocks me that the NDP wouldn't be as well, because typically this is a very pragmatic approach to something that's very different from what the committee usually deals with, and it's in a very tight timeframe.

The pragmatic approach would be to understand it, to treat it section by section, and to have it so that we understand it much better, instead of the structured format wherein politics can play a much larger part in the discussion. I think we need to eliminate that. We need to be part of discussing what this is and how it affects us.

I fully support your way to go here, Chair.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Madam Boutin-Sweet.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Regarding the pace, we thought of proceeding in this way because we don't want to slow down the debate. I think it would be easier for us to ask questions on certain topics in the usual way. I think that would speed up the process.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Does anyone else wish to speak?

Go ahead.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

All I'll say is that this is very much like what we dealt with at our last committee meeting. A piece of legislation was brought forward to this committee and we reviewed it clause by clause. I think the intent would be to review it clause by clause so that we don't miss any details with respect to it.

That is what I think the intent of the chair is. It's that we are able to review this in its totality, just like we would any other piece of legislation, a private member's bill or otherwise, that comes to this committee. It has actually been the standard practice.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Okay. I think I've heard the views on this.

In somewhat of a compromise, I suppose, if we move through it quickly, we'll open it up for rounds of questions, but I'm settled that it's more productive to go with an overview and then go through it clause by clause. If you wish to hold your questions until later, you can do that.

That's the way I'll proceed. I so order. Unless I hear anything further, we'll have the officials make their presentations.

Go ahead.

8:55 a.m.

Charles Philippe Rochon Manager, Labour Law Analysis, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to present the main points of division 10 of part 4 of the Budget Implementation Act.

I will speak mainly in English, but I will also answer any questions in French. Please feel free to ask questions.

Basically, division 10 amends part III of the Canada Labour Code. Part III is the legislation that sets minimum employment standards for employees in federally regulated enterprises. That includes employees in banking, transportation, telecommunications, broadcasting, and a few other industries, such as grain handling, uranium mining, etc.

The proposed amendments are basically aimed at making compliance with part III standards and requirements easier and less burdensome. It is also aimed at reducing the cost of administering the legislation. There is a whole series of amendments, but they can be grouped in four broad categories, which I will go through one by one.

The first broad category, or the first objective, is to simplify the calculation of holiday pay. Currently, under part III, employees are entitled to up to nine general holidays per year, each of which must normally be paid by the employer.

The difficulty, as we see it right now, is that there are actually numbers of different formulas for calculating holiday pay for employees, depending on how they are generally paid. There are different formulas depending on whether they are paid on a monthly basis, a weekly basis, or a daily basis, whether their hours of work vary from day to day, whether their earnings vary from day to day, and whether they are paid on a mileage basis as opposed to a time basis, etc. There is a large number of different formulas, which is extremely complicated. We've heard from employers, employees, and inspectors that they find the current system extremely difficult to administer.

Another difficulty is that there are currently a certain number of eligibility requirements for holiday pay, one of which is also very difficult to administer. Right now, to be entitled to holiday pay, employees must have been employed by their employer for 30 days, but they must also, as a general rule, have earned wages for 15 days in the 30 days preceding the general holiday. Now, there are exceptions to this rule and exceptions to the exceptions. Basically, what we've found is that it is extremely difficult to determine who is entitled to general holidays, and, once that's been determined, to calculate the actual amount due.

Again, from an administrative point of view, that is very complicated. From a fairness point of view, it's also a bit of an issue, because some employees will be entitled to holiday pay and others will not, and their conditions of employment are not necessarily that different from one another. Again, that has proven to be a significant issue.

What this bill proposes is to put in place a new standard method for calculating holiday pay for a general holiday. It would be as follows. The holiday pay would be an average of the four weeks of earnings in the four weeks preceding the week of the holiday.

For commission-paid employees, the calculation would be over a longer period; it would be over a 12-week period, quite simply because commission-paid employees tend to have some variation in their earnings, so we would want to make sure that we try to find a proper equilibrium to calculate their holiday pay. This would certainly simplify the calculation.

In addition to this, we would eliminate one of the current eligibility requirements. Employees would no longer need to have earned earnings over 15 days in the preceding 30 days. This will actually increase the number of employees covered by holiday pay provisions and will certainly make it much easier to calculate the amount due.

In the second broad category of amendments, we are establishing in the code a statutory complaint mechanism for all complaints not related to unjust dismissal. Right now, the code provides a complaints mechanism for unjust dismissal, but it is completely silent on any other types of complaints.

This has proven to be a problem, because we've basically set a complaint mechanism in policy, but it does not have any legal weight. Again, it creates some confusion, because employees, in some cases, don't know how they're supposed to proceed to file complaints. On our side as well it is difficult to administer because, given that it is a policy and it has no statutory backing, it is difficult to determine when we can actually reject complaints, when they must be accepted, or what kind of timeline should be set down, etc.

What we are trying to do now is set out an explicit complaint mechanism, which is what virtually all jurisdictions in Canada have. Right now, only the federal jurisdiction in Nunavut does not have a complaint mechanism for most types of labour standards or employment standards complaints.

The mechanism would set down explicitly under what circumstances complaints can be accepted or rejected. It would specify actual timelines for filing complaints. The legislation proposes that employees have six months from the occurrence of the violation to make their complaint, although this would be subject to some exceptions that we can go into as part of the clause-by-clause consideration, if you wish.

What the complaint mechanism will also specify are the specific grounds under which complaints can be rejected. They could not be rejected based on any ground other than those specified in the legislation. It would also provide a review mechanism for employees, so if their complaint is rejected by an inspector, they can ask for a second opinion. They can ask somebody to review that decision to make sure there is no arbitrariness in the rejection of complaints.

The third broad category of amendments is with respect to payment orders. Currently under the code, where an inspector finds that an employer has not paid wages to an employee, the inspector can issue a payment order. This is an order to pay wages that are due. There is a fairly complicated mechanism for reviewing that, and I'll be going into that afterward, but one of the difficulties we've faced is that it's difficult to know what kind of period should be covered by a payment order. By policy, we set down that payment orders basically should only cover 12 months of wages, or wages in the 12-month period preceding the complaint. Again, that was set by policy and does not have any particular legal weight.

Again, in some cases there were complaints, because it was believed that it should have covered a longer period. Also, in some cases it was difficult to determine how far back to go in determining whether wages are due, because somebody can make a complaint and say that they haven't been paid wages, and the inspector will start looking six months back, twelve months back.... The employee can say to please continue looking back until the inspector finds something they're owed. So the difficulty right now is that there is no specific standard or specific idea in terms of how long a period this should cover.

What the code would provide for now is an explicit timeline for the coverage of payment orders. That would be 12 months from the date of the complaint or, where an employee has ceased to be employed—if the employee has been fired and then files a complaint—it would be 12 months from the date of termination of employment. With respect to vacation pay, that could go back 24 months. The reason for this is that vacation pay tends to be earned in one year and paid the year after, so we want to make sure we're covering all vacation pay at the same time. Again, the idea is to clarify what the requirements are in that regard.

In the last broad category—and there were actually a few small miscellaneous things that I'll be discussing afterward—we are proposing to add a review mechanism for payment orders and notices of unfounded complaints. Again, payment orders, as I explained, are those orders for the payment of wages. Where an inspector finds that no wages are owing, the inspector will issue a notice of unfounded complaint to the employee, and this can also be appealed.

What we are proposing is to bring in an administrative review mechanism for payment orders and notices of unfounded complaints. Under the current system, any employee, employer, or corporate director who wishes to appeal a payment order or notice of unfounded complaint, can bring it immediately to an external referee.

That is a process that can be time-consuming, certainly, and somewhat costly, especially when we are dealing with purely factual issues. Sometimes mistakes are made when payment orders are issued. Rather than go through the whole system of appointing a referee, going through hearings, etc., what we're proposing is to bring in an administrative review mechanism so that factual errors can be corrected immediately, or at least as soon as possible. Basically, it would be done by people delegated by the minister, probably senior officials with expertise in labour standards matters.

We would keep the current mechanism for appeals to referees, external referees, but this would be limited to issues of law and jurisdiction, or issues that are viewed as so complex that they actually merit going directly to a referee as opposed to going through the administrative review mechanism.

The last couple of things to mention are that there are a few other minor technical amendments, one of which is to specify the timeline for payment of vacation pay on termination of employment. Currently, the requirement is somewhat vague; it does not set a specific timeline, so we would amend that to provide a 30-day deadline for payment of any vacation pay owing on termination of employment. That 30-day deadline corresponds to the current timeline for paying severance pay and termination pay for employees; again, employers could pay vacation pay exactly at the same time as severance and termination pay, which is a bit of a confused issue right now.

Other than that, there are a few consequential amendments to other provisions, just to make sure the whole system can work. We can go through the clause-by-clause and address some of these issues separately.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Okay.

Do you wish, then, to enter the clause-by-clause? If you go through the first clause, I'll open it up to any questions, so be attentive to that. I appreciate that you made some general comments. Members might have some general responses to them before they get to the specifics, and I think that would be acceptable.

Go ahead.

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Labour Law Analysis, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Charles Philippe Rochon

Very good: do you need me to actually read out the clauses?

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

No, I think—

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Labour Law Analysis, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Charles Philippe Rochon

No, we can just skip directly...?

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

—you can take it and go directly to the clause and give us the essence of it. I'll be watching for anybody who has questions. I think we'll start with proposed section 188.

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Labour Law Analysis, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Charles Philippe Rochon

Yes. Basically, it's clause 219, which amends section 188—

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Right.

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Labour Law Analysis, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Charles Philippe Rochon

That's the last point I raised. This is to specify the period within which vacation pay has to be paid upon termination of employment. We would specify that this has to be within 30 days from the date on which the employee ceases to be employed, which, again, is the same timeline as for the payment of severance or termination pay.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Okay.

Go ahead, Mr. Boulerice.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

I understand your concern about the consistency of the 30-day period. However, the old version—or the current unamended version—talks about a payment “without delay”.

Why go from a payment “without delay” to making people wait for a month to receive their money? I think the approach is quicker and more efficient as it is.

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Labour Law Analysis, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Charles Philippe Rochon

There some issues involved. The problem with the expression “without delay” is that the interpretation of that term will vary depending on the context.

For instance, if an employee decides to resign and fails to give notice, what is the time frame? The problem is that, in certain cases, employers don't know either because they have to calculate the due amount. In other cases, payments have not been made, wages have not yet been paid out. Holiday pay has to be calculated in addition to wages. Some payments are not taken into account, and holiday pay also has to be calculated. That causes a problem, at least for inspectors, because the situation becomes a bit difficult if the employee complains. It's impossible to know whether the period will be longer or shorter.

The second problem is that there are currently two contradictory provisions. One provision says “without delay” and another provision specifies “for all wages owed”. They must be paid within 30 days.

Vacation pay is a salary. So we have two provisions. Which one will apply in this case? This is certainly a problem when it comes to interpreting the code. So we thought we would simplify things and use the same rule for all cases. That's why we settled on 30 days.