Human Resources Committee on April 1st, 2014

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In all the testimony we heard, the same thing almost always comes up, that is to say basic skills. The various industry stakeholders tell us that they have to do more general training when they should be able to do professional training, training specific to their business or industry. That is the case because the workers who arrive with technical training do not have the basic skills they should have acquired during their schooling, rather than during vocational training.

First, my question is addressed to our two witnesses from Nova Scotia. They are the closest to the communities and they will be able to give us a more appropriate vision of the aboriginal communities. My question will then be addressed to all of our guests.

In your opinion, what changes should the federal government, which is responsible for educating aboriginal populations, make so that we can, both on and off reserves, fight the drop-out rate and school failure in aboriginal communities? These mean that young aboriginal persons of 17 or 18 years of age cannot accede to vocational training programs because they do not have the basic training.

[Karen Pictou]

It's a really loaded question, with lots of different views—

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

I am asking if you have recommendations, practical measures that you feel would be necessary, since you interact with your community. Are the professors not adapted to the situation? Are the courses not appropriate? Are the schools the issue, do they have structural problems? What do you see on the ground? What can you suggest to the committee?

[Karen Pictou]

So much of education is also a part of the social dynamic of the community. Speaking from personal experience, I dropped out in grade 9 and didn't go back to school again until I was 19. By then, I already had a kid, I was living on my own The thing that gave me success was my parents' expectations of me. My parents are both university educated. They always expected me to go to school and all of those things.

One thing that I've heard is a best practice across the country is engaging parents as career coaches and getting them involved right from the beginning of their children's education. One thing we don't see very much in our schools is parents' involvement at the school—going to parent-teacher interviews, and all of those types of things—which really is the core of how well a student is going to do growing up, despite all of the challenges in the community. Much of the programming that is needed to do the proper outreach just doesn't exist. That's one view.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Ms. Bowers, what is your opinion on that?

[Valerie Bowers]

Actually, I was an educator first and then I went into employment. As an educator, I have seen that we end up losing our kids before they even reach high school. We have to reach the children when they're in junior high and help them figure things out.

I think we need to give them more role models. We need to show them what's available, because they have absolutely no idea what's out there and what they need. They're taking courses that are not going to help them when they get into the employment world. When they get to us, they don't have the math, science, and language arts literacy skills—

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

If I understand what you said correctly, you are recommending a change in curricula? Are you saying that the school programs are not adapted to the needs the young people have when they come out of the school system? Do you think that the federal government should change the school programs?

[Valerie Bowers]

I think the federal government should be talking more with provinces and with the educational system. I think there has to be more of a universal model, so that everyone is starting out on the same plane. There are many differences among provinces. We need to start looking at a more even plane to figure out where we need to be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you for that.

We will move on to Mr. Mayes for five minutes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

One of the great things about the employment challenge that our Canadian economy is experiencing now is that it actually has awakened two parties. First, the aboriginal community recognizes its potential as employees and second, the Canadian employers recognize the potential of the aboriginal community. So it's actually a blessing that we're going through this now because it's just accelerating this opportunity that has been overlooked in our economy for some time. It's great that we're seeing the potential and we're acting on it.

One of the things that has come up a number of times is an issue about eligibility. You talked about 18. We did a study on post-secondary education for aboriginal students when I was on the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and what was identified at that time was that things needed to start sooner in the education system in the aboriginal communities—to get the potential skills training to those already in grade school, to keep their interest, and to enable them to access those opportunities earlier in their education.

First, I'd like to go on record to make sure the analyst picks that up, because I'd like to see that in the report.

The next thing I've heard, talking about the program, is that it's limited to five years and there are cut-off dates. We are entrusted to use taxpayers' money—it's not government money, it's taxpayers' money—to ensure that we have good value. I don't think it's unreasonable to have a sunset clause on programs so that they can be reviewed. It doesn't mean that they're not going to be renewed, but it gives us an opportunity to look at the outcomes.

Quite frankly, previously we've found that various programs just didn't have great outcomes so we need to have that opportunity to review. It isn't that there isn't support of the programs as much as it is that we just want to make sure we review them and make sure they're working. That's what this committee is doing now, just seeing what is working and what is not. It's great that we can ask you those questions.

On the take-up in the aboriginal communities as far as recognizing these opportunities and moving forward, I wonder how you go into a community and take that opportunity in a classroom or somewhere and just communicate the opportunities and encourage and give students confidence.

I would ask our witnesses particularly from Nova Scotia and from the mining sector if you get involved in that and if so, how do you manage that?

[Karen Pictou]

A lot of times when we're doing recruitment for specific opportunities we'll take people who have shown interest on site tours and do a short work placement in that area, if possible, if the safety levels aren't too high there, and things like that to let them get their feet wet and see if it's a good career fit for them. That's one piece.

Val, do you have anything else to add?

[Valerie Bowers]

I really think it's important that students are exposed to employment that's out there in their community, whatever it is, so they are aware of opportunities and they can make proper decisions when it comes to making choices in high school. When they're picking the courses to take in high school they should know what their prerequisites are. They have to know what it involves.

We really need to be able to give them a taste, a test drive, but we don't really have that in our first nations communities. It's in the provincial schools more. We really need kids to be able to see and experience it first-hand so they can make the proper decisions and then build upon that. I think they really need to experience it first.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

You have 10 seconds.

[Ryan Montpellier]

If I can just add, we've developed a number of resources at the council to help our members. When they move into a community or when they explore for the next mine, they have the right resources to help educate the local population about the opportunities at each phase of the mining cycle, so that there are no broken promises and we can set expectations realistically.

If I can just comment on Mr. Brahmi's comment about specific recommendations to increase the participation of aboriginal people in the education system, I agree with your comments around keeping youth involved in education for as long as possible. What we saw in the diamond mines in the NWT was that high school completion rates were only at about 50% before the diamond mines came in. Once youth had a vision of a career, once they could see what, if they stayed in school, awaited them at the end of that, once we could demonstrate that opportunity, the high school completion rates moved north of 80%.

So when we're talking about a stay-in-school message, when we're talking about the importance of STEM, when we're talking about the importance of education, I really think it's a question of demonstrating the link back to a career and to a lifestyle that is different from the one they may be living today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

Madam Sims, you have five minutes.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much. I want to thank the presenters. I'm so glad you two made it today, and in person, to boot.

K-to-12 education is a provincial matter, and yet we find ourselves talking a lot about K to 12 because it's one of the foundations for entry into the workplace and for lifelong learning. Having been a teacher all my life, I sometimes feel I'm still that even today, but in a different venue. It's a profession I've absolutely loved and I would not make any changes in my career choices.

We cannot avoid talking about K to 12 when we're talking about.... It's not just employment; it's about lifelong learning for our first nations students. I've had the privilege, and I would say a privilege, of working with first nations students as a counsellor and a teacher. I can tell you about the tears of joy I had when one of my students graduated out of grade 12 and got a really great scholarship. I still get emotional when I think of that moment because it wasn't just a big moment for us at school. It was a huge moment for the community as well. We did a big community celebration after that.

However, the federal government does have a role to play in K to 12, and that is with funding for schools on reserves, aboriginal schools. Historically, we have not done a great job. We're still busy apologizing. I believe reconciliation is a process that is ongoing. But I really worry about the shortfall in funding. I'm a great believer in equity rather than equality. As a classroom teacher teaching students from diverse backgrounds, often it wasn't about giving everybody an equal opportunity, it was about that equitable opportunity. Because when we have students who have extraordinary needs, then you need to provide the resources so that those children can live up to their potential. I think we do need a major investment to ensure greater success.

The other side comment I have to make is that after having been out of the classroom for over 10 years—I think it was closer to 12, actually—when I finished my presidency I chose to go back to a classroom on purpose. I chose an inner city school in Nanaimo. What broke my heart at that time is that things were worse for the kids 10 or 12 years later than before. One point that you made to me really struck home, and that is the need for role models for our first nations students. It's not just teaching first nations students in little rooms set aside in a school. Our first nations students need to see teachers right across the board teaching math, teaching English, teaching home economics, the whole spectrum.

What I really want to get down to right now is the work experience you mentioned that we do have in the public school system, which I believe is a great motivator and a connector for our kids. How do you think the work experience program could be implemented into the aboriginal schools so that the students can find that link to what they learn and where their passion may rest? It doesn't happen from reading a book, as much as I would want it to be. It happens from going out and doing something hands-on and having some real experiences. How do you think we could encourage or facilitate that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

A very quick answer, please. We're almost out of time.

[Valerie Bowers]

I really think we need to work with our provincial educational authorities to partner together so that we can bring those services into our communities. In Nova Scotia, we've actually started that conversation, so I'm hoping that it will work. I've visited schools in Frog Lake, and they have that in school. I was so impressed. I said, oh, I want this in Nova Scotia. I know it does exist because when I went to school they had it, but I went to a provincial school. We really need that, and I think the best practice is what we need to borrow from across the country. The best practice, whatever's working, we need to make sure that it's universal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Maguire, you have five minutes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your presentations today.

This issue of continuing education is something that has always been important to me in regard to making sure that people stay in our schools, starting in the elementary, but probably mid-year levels more than anything.

From your own experience, Ms. Pictou, you've certainly indicated that it was important to you.

We've put this $1.25 billion that's going to go into improving this on-reserve education system here coming up, but I want to ask both Mr. Montpellier and Mr. Gratton, and perhaps any of you, what you see as the most important way of making sure that we can work with students in our schools, whether it's to use the hope that once you get out of school you get into the community colleges and the proper training.... I think you've emphasized, all of you, that the importance there could start right in our schools, right in the grade 9,10, 11, 12 areas in regard to training and how important it is to have a goal once the mind was set up that there was something to achieve and something to work for.

I have some experience in relation to one particular region that has a program of helping to keep kids in school. One of them is to make sure that they graduate or finish school, as you've said. They've put some non-traditional course involvement in place to help students stay in school or at least be attracted to it. One of the things that I heard earlier, I believe from Ryan, was to talk about how it's important to make sure that there is an attendance record in place.

What can we do to make sure that an attendance record is there as a beginning to an interest in training?

[Pierre Gratton]

If I may, I want to jump in before we run out of time to share an anecdote and also to partly answer your question.

There is another initiative that I got involved with in B.C., the Breakfast Club of Canada. Let's not overlook that a hungry child doesn't do well in school. When I was involved we got Grand Chief Ed John involved as well. There's a first nations component in B.C. to the breakfast clubs initiative. It started in Quebec, but I think it's now pretty pan-Canadian. Don't lose sight of that very basic need, kids going hungry.

I wanted to also share an anecdote. I don't know, and it would be interesting to learn from Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development how pervasive it is, but when I visited the North American Palladium mine five or six years ago outside of Thunder Bay, the participation rate of aboriginal people at the mine was quite low. I asked the question why the community nearby, about a half an hour away so maybe two hours from Thunder Bay, had no secondary school. It stopped at primary. The kids who wanted to go to high school had to go to Thunder Bay.

I ask all of you, or all of us here, how many of us would want to send our kids, at the age of 12 or 13, two hours away, perhaps for the week, to attend high school? Most of us don't have to deal with that. It's kind of like a perpetuation of residential schools in some way because they have to leave their families if they want to get high school education. No wonder we have this problem. I just wonder how many communities are like that.

Of the ones who do go to Thunder Bay, some of them succeed but some of them just end up dropping out of school there and then becoming a destitute, urban aboriginal person on the streets in Thunder Bay, or they stay in their community and don't go to high school. We need to address those fundamental needs, and I'm hopeful that the new initiative that the Prime Minister and Shawn Atleo announced and that investment in schools on reserves will start to address that issue. I just wanted to share that story.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Would any other witnesses like to weigh in on Mr. Maguire's question?

[Susanna Cluff-Clyburne]

The only thing that I would add is, one of the things that our members have told us is very important and that we've also heard from educators is the issue of transitional assistance for aboriginal peoples because many of them do have to leave their home communities to go to high school. If you live in Old Crow, Yukon, you're only going home at Christmas, and they were debating in Yukon whether to fund a flight home at Easter. It's a big thing.

I think that for any of us, if we were at 14 years old and thrown into a totally alien community with a lot of people who we don't know, it would be a culture that's unfamiliar to us. It would be a pretty tough slog. If you ramp that up to the post-secondary education level, that's one of the things that our members have told us is where one of the fallout points is, of course, that there just isn't a lot of support in many cases for aboriginal students who do have a goal. They know what they want to do. They want to go and seek the post-secondary education to get them there, but unfortunately there just isn't the support once they land in Ottawa, Thunder Bay, or wherever it is that they have to go to get their post-secondary education.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you for that, and that ends our time for questioning.

I'd like to take this moment to thank our witnesses for coming to Ottawa and for sharing with us. This has been what I would characterize today as a very good conversation, back and forth between the members of Parliament around the table and yourselves. We appreciate your input; it's a lovely group to have finished with our live witnesses. You are welcome to submit written submissions to us if you wish, beyond this.

Thank you very much again for being here.

We'll take a short recess and then go into committee business.

[Proceedings continue in camera]