Evidence of meeting #34 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Frelich  Acting Director General, Identity Policy and Programs, Department of Employment and Social Development
Bev Davis  Director, Policy and Partnerships, Department of Employment and Social Development
Steve McCuaig  National President, Canada Employment and Immigration Union
Jim Bishop  Chair, Government Relations Committee, Funeral Service Association of Canada

12:25 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations Committee, Funeral Service Association of Canada

Jim Bishop

It's slightly different from province to province, but in most cases there's a wallet size and a certificate size, and they're issued the same way that birth certificates and marriage certificates are issued. Of course they're all done in the same departments in most provinces. The funeral director's statement of death has the same information on it that the provincial death certificate has. The only difference is ours is issued by our funeral home and the other one is issued by the province. The provinces have a fee per document and it's at the discretion of the funeral home whether they choose to charge for these documents or include them as part of their service.

Speaking for myself, we include the documents and we'll give the family as many of those as they require. Some people have different-sized estates to settle so they may need more proofs of death in some cases and some may need less, which brings me back to the importance of this bill. If you were to simplify some of those reports, you wouldn't need as many of those proofs of death. Somebody, in a case where they had to deal with the province and get a provincial death certificate, may be incurring hundreds of dollars' worth of costs to notify all of these agencies. With the single point of contact, you'd have one. Where the funeral homes are already accepted, I don't see why that wouldn't be the document required down the road.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

I think you mentioned that different provinces have different processing times. I think you said it was from seven days to up to 48 days. Do you have any idea why it would take provinces that long to process that kind of thing? I find it incredible that it would take 48 days to process something like that.

12:25 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations Committee, Funeral Service Association of Canada

Jim Bishop

As I mentioned earlier, one of the key delays is the time the doctor takes to fill out the cause of death, sign off on the death certificate, and then forward it to vital statistics. It doesn't come back to the funeral home for us to forward. The doctor does it. Once we've filled out the civil portion that we're required to do and we forward it to the doctor, the onus is on him to get it to vital stats. You have different timeframes based on whether it sat on his desk for 10 days or whether he looked at it right away. There are a lot of different factors.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Our next questioner is Mr. Cuzner.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

To continue on that line, is the statement that the funeral home owner issues, the funeral director's statement, a legal document?

12:25 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations Committee, Funeral Service Association of Canada

Jim Bishop

No. It has our incorporated seal on it, but banks, insurance companies, Canada pension plan, all the agencies that people deal with accept it. We qualify who the legitimate person making the affairs is. We'll ask for the first page of the will to see who the named executor is so that we know. We can't just take word of mouth to assume that this person said they're in charge and so they are. We look for proof. When they receive a statement from us, and it has a responsible party's name listed on those statements of death, we've done the homework with the family to ensure that the person who says they're in charge is in charge.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

This probably would have been better directed at the officials, but you may know this, Jim. What are we looking at annually as far as what this might save? Scott had mentioned the savings in the U.K. with overpayments of benefits or program moneys. If we're able to get ahead of this with this legislation, what kind of money are we looking at each year?

12:30 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations Committee, Funeral Service Association of Canada

Jim Bishop

I couldn't give you specific figures, but as far as those benefits are concerned, you would have a situation whereby somebody's overpaid. What if that responsible party didn't realize that's where that source of income came from and they spent some of that money? Then you have to recoup that money from the government because it's owed back to you. There are instances like that when it's going to be expensive to get your money back, and there's paperwork involved, and the headache.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

I guess that bleeds into Mr. McCuaig's situation. What you shared is absolutely real, and I appreciate that. Having had an opportunity to speak with some people who do EI processing, I know the turnaround time would be about three weeks. With 600 fewer bums in the seats, we're seeing that five, six, and seven weeks aren't uncommon.

The people who are phoning in, the ones who get through—I agree with you; I think 30% is probably a low number—but more than half for sure are being dropped. When people do get hold of somebody, the anxiety level is far greater.

Are your people now being asked to try to recoup some of the money on these overpayments? Is that one of their functions in this?

The officials had identified $900,000 per link. Would salaries be a part of that $900,000, do you think? Again, that was probably a question we should have asked the officials.

12:30 p.m.

National President, Canada Employment and Immigration Union

Steve McCuaig

No, they haven't come to the union and had that conversation, so I don't know. The amount of $900,000 doesn't sound like a whole lot, in my mind, for what this is entailing.

As I said, when I mentioned 30%, that was at an all-time low. If you can imagine that as an all-time low—it has happened—then let's be realistic: it could become that again if we don't invest the proper amount of resources into the workforce.

To say that I can tell you exactly how much is needed, again, until we....

Jim is speaking from a perspective of what's happening right now. You're asking me what things are going to look like in the future. I don't know. All I can give you is this example. Veterans Affairs had nine offices close across the country and those services were sent over to Service Canada. Our members were very proud to take that on—don't get me wrong—but the amount of time that was put into this was approximately three months from the day that the announcements were made to when the offices were closed, if I recall correctly. If it wasn't three months, it wasn't much more than six. I think you're talking about a very short period of time. I'm sure you recall the anxiety it caused the veterans, and the demonstrations that it created.

All I'm saying is take the time to do this right. Put in the proper investment. I'd like to see it succeed. That's the way it's going to happen.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you, Mr. Cuzner. That's your time. I know it goes fast, but that's the way it goes.

We go to Mr. Mayes for five minutes.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I want to thank Mr. Bishop for his opening remarks. As one who was just metres away from the event last Wednesday, I thought I was going to be a client of one of your members for a while and I'm thankful to be here today to be asking questions.

We talk a little bit about the process. Mr. Butt took some of my questions away.

Your family, Mr. Bishop, has been in the business for some time. I'm sure there was a time when there was a form that had to be filled out and it had to be mailed and it literally could take months to get to the right department. Things are speeding up, are they not?

12:30 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations Committee, Funeral Service Association of Canada

Jim Bishop

For sure.

October 28th, 2014 / 12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Yes. I guess that's the issue: with the number of files that Service Canada takes care of, such as veterans, EI, and those types of things, the Government of Canada has tried to speed things up by allowing people to fill out their forms on the Internet. There always is a transition, and it always causes a little bit of a problem with clients. It's just like when they came out with banking whereby you could do everything with a card; you didn't have to go to a teller. I was not a big supporter of that when it first happened. I wanted to see somebody, but now I wouldn't even want to go inside a bank. It's just great to go to the bank machine. These are all transitions that we're going through. I see that as part of what this bill is bringing forward: to modernize the system to make it more efficient and be more user friendly for the Canadian public, who are our clients.

You have been a representative of FSAC for a number of years. Is there a mechanism that you have been able to use to talk to the department about some of these issues before this bill came forward? Is there that communication to enable you to let the department know exactly what some of the challenges are with regard to this reporting?

12:35 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations Committee, Funeral Service Association of Canada

Jim Bishop

In the time that I've been with FSAC, we haven't really had a go-to person beyond our normal lobbying with the government on the different issues that we run into, but the introduction of this bill definitely opened the door to a discussion that was long overdue as far as we're concerned. We never had a point of contact that we were able to go to and say, “This is what the issue is.”

A lot of times the provincial associations have talked to their provincial governments about issues, but at the federal level, before this bill we didn't really have a chance to discuss this particular issue the way we are now.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

That's great. I thank my colleague for bringing this bill forward because that is the issue, really: being able to move these things forward. I think we all appreciate that and are very supportive of trying to improve the service to customers. I think that's great.

I don't have too many other questions. I just think that this is a very prudent move.

To address Mr. McCuaig's point, I really believe there's going to be a transition and that it's going to take a few bodies, but the fact is that once it's in place, you won't need those bodies anymore and it becomes a matter of just doing the entries. We have to be careful that we don't overreact and hire a number of people, and then all of a sudden there are too many people. I have faith in the department to analyze that and determine what is necessary to make this transition.

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

That ends our first round of questioning. We move on to the second round now.

Madam Sims.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I want to thank both of you for coming to present to us. As Mr Mayes said, we appreciate your thoughts, especially with last week and this week. It has been a very emotional and difficult week for everyone.

It also makes you reflect. One of the key things I hear about from everybody nowadays is how expensive it is to die. They look at the cost of funerals and all the pain and agony about communications. That is definitely a key concern, especially for seniors. I hear from them all the time. They're worried about how their expenses are going to be covered.

At the same time I want to thank, through you, all the people who do the job that you do and who work in the funeral homes and memorial homes in order to make that time as reasonably palatable as possible. It's a very difficult time, and I appreciate the emotions.

I want to talk about the stress on the system. There is no doubt that over the last number of years our public services, especially at the federal level, have felt a horrendous squeeze. Whenever we get a new program or a consolidation announced, there is the idea that because you pass a piece of legislation everything is going to happen just like that, but as with anything, once you have new legislation there needs to be an implementation plan that's reasonable and which has training.

Mr. McCuaig, I'm very sensitive to the comment you made that it's about staffing. It is about staffing, but it's also about the training that is required. To receive a phone call from someone, or to be in contact with someone who has just lost a loved one...my experience has been that it doesn't matter whether it's your child or your parent or your siblings, when you lose a loved one, you're very vulnerable, very emotional. The person at Service Canada is going to need training in order to interact with people who are phoning in. I absolutely agree that we will need to have that kind of training in place.

In the long term, maybe five or ten years down the road, maybe even sooner, there might be savings with this model, but I don't think this legislation was brought here by Mr. Valeriote because he is trying to save dollars. I believe he brought this legislation here because it's the right thing to do. It will alleviate a lot of personal pain. With respect to people receiving pensions when they shouldn't because their loved one has died, I hear about that all the time, and the kind of angst that places on the families.

The other issue is when they get phone calls from people like us. There are deceased people who are still on the Elections Canada list. Someone has to say, “Sorry, my dad passed away”. You feel bad. There is a lot of work that we can do to coordinate.

My question is for you, Mr. McCuaig.

What kind of a timeline would you like to see, and what kind of a transition process would be the most acceptable when you're dealing with sensitive legislation that aims to make life less onerous for those who have lost a loved one? We want to do it right.

12:40 p.m.

National President, Canada Employment and Immigration Union

Steve McCuaig

Absolutely. I think my experience has shown that anything less than a year is probably too ambitious. I am actually a product of the Social Security Tribunal, which amalgamated four tribunals into one, and that was done over the course of a year. It was ambitious and today it seems to be okay, but it certainly had a lot of growing pains in the meantime.

If it's going to be as ambitious as that, that tells me you need to take at least a year and perhaps more. Again, I'm not clear as to what is being amalgamated. Will it be strictly the federal side, or will it include parts of the provincial and possibly the municipal governments as well? How many of the branches of the federal government would it bring together? It's difficult until we know exactly what the amalgamation is going to consist of, but at the very least it would have to take a year.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you for that.

Mr. Maguire, you're our next questioner.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

We have a lot of questions here. It seems that it's a very straightforward bill that Mr. Valeriote has put forward.

One thing that caught my ear, Mr. Bishop, was your comment that maybe isn't related as much to the bill but that currently, they receive the funds themselves before paying the funeral home and you want to redirect the CPP death benefits to funeral homes.

Do you experience a delay in getting payment on these kinds of claims now?

12:40 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations Committee, Funeral Service Association of Canada

Jim Bishop

Quite often we do, unfortunately. What appears to be the case in some estate matters is that the family don't view it as a death benefit that's there to assist in the payment of a funeral, but rather money in the estate that can be used for whatever purposes they see fit.

Oftentimes funeral homes advance money to families ahead of time to cover disbursements that they're paying on the family's behalf. It's not part of the funeral service invoice. There are times when they'll wait on that $2,500. They'll pay the rest of it and say, “Well, in six weeks or five weeks when that comes in, we'll bring it in to you.” Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.

It's also one less thing that a fammily would have to bother with. If their intent was for that death benefit to go towards the payment of a funeral expense with a funeral home, if that can be assigned through their approval directly to the funeral home, that's one less step that these people would have to take. That's part of that simplification process, which was why I kind of segued that in through my opening notes.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

One of your comments as well was you wanted a better road map for death certificates, for that whole process. You've outlined that somewhat.

I was shocked, as was my colleague, that there would be delays in some of the provinces of up to 48 days in having this type of turnover, particularly as my colleague, Mr. Mayes, indicated, with today's technology. I would assume that the actions, no matter if it takes a few months to get in place, at least if the bill was to pass and come into force in Canada, this would certainly be an opportunity to streamline some of those processes. That's the intent of the whole bill.

You're certainly in agreement with that. Could you maybe indicate to us the logistics of how you see that streamlining it? We've had some comments on that, but I'd like to hear your views as well.

12:45 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations Committee, Funeral Service Association of Canada

Jim Bishop

Part of the delay.... I'm not trying to put this all on the doctors and say the doctors are negligent in their timely fashion of filling out that paperwork. There are also cases where there has been an autopsy and people are waiting for the toxicological results; they're waiting for the inquest from the pathologist. Some of those things will cause delays in certain instances. That's something that can't be helped because how do you speed up the autopsy process? That's something that I haven't even begun to try to fathom.

I find that if all of the hospitals were able to make it a policy that a body could not be released from a hospital without a signed death registration by a doctor, which would dramatically speed up the process, then you would find doctors would start signing these quicker. If a funeral is delayed because we can't get the body from the morgue of the hospital because the death certificate hasn't been signed, you're going to see doctors signing, I would assume, in a faster timeframe.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

You've indicated that in your profession.... Obviously seeing this bill come forward, have you talked to people who have gone through the trauma of a death in their family, and has anyone approached you in regard to this bill? Have you talked to people about it? Certainly in your association across Canada you will have.

Can you supply any feedback? What feedback have you received from them? I guess that's the question I'd like to ask, and are there any stakeholders who see many negatives from this change?