Human Resources Committee on Nov. 27th, 2014

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

Minister, being a teacher I get excited when you start talking about education and all of the things we need to be doing. As a classroom teacher and a counsellor at a high school I watched the apprenticeship program being gutted, in our province at least, but I also watched the practical courses, the labs, the mechanics shop, the drafting shop, the woodwork shop, the metalwork shop not being updated enough. As K to 12 education is a provincial matter, what conversations have you had with provincial partners to ensure that there is a massive infusion of funds into the post-secondary system to engage students in a meaningful way in the hands-on crafts? I found that was the best way to get somebody into those areas, because once they went to the metalwork shop and they did a little bit of welding and found out all the exciting career opportunities, they could move on.

The other thing is, and I was not surprised, because I've read the same report, that the private sector is at the bottom of the list in regard to investments in skills development. What initiatives have you come up with to encourage our private sector to step up to the plate? I say this, because I've seen how it works. When I was growing up in England my brothers were the beneficiaries of some excellent apprenticeships that they went into and then went on to finish their degrees.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Of course the provinces control most of the direct policy levers in this area.

In direct response, what have we done to encourage and increase private sector investment in skills development? The answer is that we are retooling all of the major federal skills development programs, most of which are transfers to provinces and territories to emphasise the importance of employer involvement to get the employers to put more skin in the game. That was the whole point behind the Canada job grant.

Employers tell us, especially the SMEs, that the number one reason they don't spend more on apprenticeship and other training programs is that they are concerned about poaching, that if they invest $10,000 or $20,000 in an apprentice or training program, the young person will, once fully certified, be poached by a bigger employer with deeper pockets and a larger payroll.

The idea of the job grant was to reduce the risk exposure for SMEs to invest in skills training. If we came in and offset, say, two-thirds of the training unit costs, they would then be more comfortable putting in one-third of the cost. It diminishes the risk for employers who are involved in training, and we're very hopeful. It's too early to say whether that will be a success or not, but we're very hopeful about the model.

Similarly, we got provinces to commit to the new Canada job fund agreements, which is the new version of the old labour market agreements, to put at least 40% of their programming into employer-led training, so employers put more skin in the game there.

Regarding labour market development agreements, we're trying to get the provinces to renew the LMDAs. That's a $2-billion EI premium-funded training program for unemployed Canadians. We're asking them to make a key emphasis on programs that are employer led and demand driven, moving from the old 1970s manpower training model, which was supply driven, to a 21st century employer demand-driven model where they have to put money in to benefit from the program. That's what we're trying to do. We need the cooperation of provinces and we're starting to get it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

Mr. Butt, you have five minutes, sir.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Minister, and others for being here today.

I'd like to start by talking about the new horizons for seniors program. In the supplementary estimates there is a request for an additional $5 million. This is an outstanding program. I don't think there is a community, seniors association, or organization in Canada that hasn't benefited from this program.

I have a couple of questions. If the allocation is being increased by $5 million, what is the base now? Are we looking at or giving any consideration to raising the cap per application? I believe $25,000 is the maximum now that a group can get. Are we looking at any sort of increase down the road in the level that the organization can receive?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chairman and Mr. Butt, the answer is that we have been spending about $43 million—well, last year it was $38 million—on the new horizons program. As you mentioned, we're increasing it by $5 million to $43 million. The results have been that, since 2004, 14,000 projects have been funded in over 1,000 communities. There was a program evaluation done in 2010 that resulted in minor adjustments, such as expanding the list of eligible recipients to include businesses and consolidating three previous funding streams into two. The next program evaluation is anticipated next year.

I will take under advisement your suggestion that we expand the maximum grant that people can receive.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

At this stage then with that most recent change, could a for-profit organization qualify for a new horizons grant? When you say business, do you mean a not-for-profit business?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

No, as long as the for-profit business has multiple partners.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

So a long-term care facility is an example, or a nursing home that wants to run a recreation program within their centre. They happen to be in business for profit, but they're probably partnering with a local community organization that's coming in and doing fitness one day a week for the seniors or something.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Exactly. Precisely.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

That kind of thing would qualify.

Minister, you've been to my annual employment forum in Streetsville, and I just held it again a couple of weeks ago. People are always amazed when their MP invites them to come and we have a whole bunch of agencies in the room and they talk about their services.

My constituents are telling me that they are amazed at the number of services that are available in the community, delivered at the federal, provincial, and local levels. They come to the forum, and they leave saying that they had no idea all of these services were available.

I know it's tough to communicate to everybody and for people to know about every program. What more can we do so that if I lose my job tomorrow—or as Rodger would like me to do, to lose my job on October 19, 2015—I can go online quickly, or somewhere, to find out what resources are in my local community, in my area? Many of these are free. There is no charge for people to avail themselves of these services, to look at retraining and all these other things.

Is there, or have we developed, or are we working on a one-stop shop where I can literally type into Google “Lost my job, what do I do next?” and something comes up and puts a path in place for me so that I can get a new job? Are we working on something like that?

That's the number one thing I get from people: they had no idea all of these resources were there.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I share your frustration.

Our ability to raise awareness about the availability of these programs is limited because by and large they are not delivered by the provinces. Since the late nineties, with the devolution of labour market programming from the federal to the provincial governments, they took ownership of this. I know you have views about how Employment Ontario is or is not doing its job to raise public awareness of these programs.

We are doing some things at ESDC to increase uptake and awareness of the programs. First of all, we are upgrading our website and our web presence. We are about to launch, early next year, Canada Job Bank 2.0, which will be a much more interactive website, and I hope it will also be connecting people to the many programs that are available.

We are looking at launching a massively upgraded dial 211 system so people who need employment support can get someone directly on the phone who can direct them to the appropriate program.

I've asked provinces, in the negotiations we've had, to renew the labour market development agreements, now the Canada job fund agreements, etc., and to do a better job of reaching out proactively. One of the key priorities we have for provinces in LMDA renewal is not to sit there passively in their Employment Ontario office or wherever, waiting for the unemployed Canadian—that's not going to happen to you, but for Rodger in November of 2015—to knock on the door. We don't want them to wait there passively. We'll be sharing information with them on who is unemployed. We want them to pick up the phone and call those clients.

This is what they do in Germany, early intervention, active measures. Call them in and say, “Get in here within a week of losing your job and let's work out a plan to get you the relevant training, to connect you with an employer.” That is the big push we're making with provinces through the LMDA.

My frustration is not just with employment services, but with foreign credential recognition. We are spending something like $30 million a year on efforts to streamline and accelerate foreign credential recognition, pre-arrival orientation, etc., and yet when we do focus groups and public opinion research, virtually no immigrants know anything about these services that are available. Yes, we do broadly have to do a better job of promoting these things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you, Minister.

Minister, I'll just mention that in this round we have two more five-minute rounds, and that would take us to approximately 12:20. Do you wish to continue at this point? Finishing this round would take us to about 12:20. Is that okay with you?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

That's fine. Yes, the Egyptian ambassador can wait.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Madam Sims, go ahead.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to follow up on the idea you put forward of trying to model some of our stuff on the German system, such as the early engagement of students.

I am still struggling with what tools you have in your hands federally to convince the provinces that they need to do this at the secondary school level.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

At the secondary school level we have very few.

I would invite input from this committee on whether or not the $8 billion that the Government of Canada transfers to provinces in the Canada social transfer, in part to support post-secondary education, ought to have at least some reporting requirements, if not conditions in terms of labour market outcomes.

I note that the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance chaired by our brilliant colleague James Rajotte has recommended this repeatedly, Ms. Sims. I have raised this with the provinces.

Let me put it to you this way. We are increasing the CST to provinces by 3% a year, and yet when I look at many of the in-demand programs in the polytechnics and community colleges, some of them, such as power engineering at NAIT or welding at BCIT, are turning away as many as 90% of the qualified applicants for those programs. Welding at BCIT has a two-year backlog, even though those are in-demand and good-paying jobs.

This makes no sense. I quite frankly doubt that there's a two-year backlog to get into a sociology program at Simon Fraser University. So I'm asking the provinces, and B.C. is doing this, to begin looking at allocating their PSE resources at least in part to line up with labour market outcomes.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you.

I have a brief question about the veterans offices having been closed.

Do we know whether Service Canada—

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I don't think this has anything to do with veterans' issues or with the supplementary estimates (B).

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

I would tend to agree. I was slightly distracted exactly when this exchange happened. I'm going to ask Madam Sims—I know I've given lots of latitude today—to please keep it relative in some way, shape, or form to the estimates.

Is this a point of order, Mr. Cuzner?

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Yes, it's a point of order.

I'm not exactly sure where she's going with the question, but certainly, in light of the fact that Service Canada outlets have had to assume the responsibility for the Veterans Affairs offices that were closed in Sydney, there's a chance that this may be relevant.

Maybe we should hear the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

I am still going to ask Madam Sims to drill to that level to ask the minister the question whether it is the case, because I'm not certain it is the case. I'm not certain of the business model, in terms of whether it should.... So if that's where you're driving to the question, that is fine.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

My question is very specific, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

I'll let you proceed, but please don't go too far off.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

My key question here is, did Service Canada hire more staff to deal with the additional responsibilities? Is the staff trained to respond to the specific needs of veterans?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Service Canada didn't hire additional staff, but Veterans Affairs Canada has worked out an arrangement whereby Veterans Affairs have put their staff in Service Canada offices so that people can actually speak to a VAC specialist. We've opened eight service centres as a result of this and are looking at potentially expanding that platform.