Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Sept. 26th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

The meeting will now come to order. We are ready to proceed. All our technical problems have been ironed out.

I want to welcome on behalf of our committee the Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance. I think we're all very familiar with the alliance. They represent approximately 450 immigrant and refugee settlement agencies from all across Canada.

Welcome.

I'm not familiar with the witnesses' committee. I know one member, who is from back in St. John's, Newfoundland, in my neck of the woods: Bridget Foster.

I want to welcome you in particular, Bridget.

Bridget comes bearing gifts this morning. She got some of our local Newfoundland candy, which she would like me to give to the committee members.

Thank you, Bridget.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I thought she was going to bring screech.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Well, it should have been. Maybe the next time we have her back we'll insist on that.

Normally, witnesses are given 15 minutes to begin with, to make an opening statement. If you wish, you may proceed to the introduction of your committee and then go to your opening statement, after which, of course, our committee members, starting here with the opposition members, will have discussion and questions and what have you. We will go around the table on seven-minute and five-minute rounds to have an open discussion with you.

Are you, sir, the chair of the committee? Okay, I'll turn it over to you. Please proceed.

[Reza Shahbazi, Chair, Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance (CISSA)]

Good morning, and greetings from the settlement sector across Canada.

My name is Reza Shahbazi. I am the chair of the Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance. We will introduce ourselves, and then I'll start.

[Stephan Reichhold, Member-at-large, Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance (CISSA)]

Hello. My name is Stephan Reichhold. I am the director of the Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes and I’m from the province of Quebec. We represent 132 organisations throughout Quebec who work with refugees and immigrants.

[Chris Friesen, Secretary, Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance (CISSA)]

My name is Chris Friesen. I'm here representing AMSSA, Affiliation of Multicultural Societies and Service Agencies, the umbrella association in British Columbia, a group that represents over 80 multicultural and immigrant-serving agencies in British Columbia.

[Bridget Foster, Member-at-large, Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance (CISSA)]

My name is Bridget Foster. I am from St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador, but today I'm representing the Atlantic Region Association of Immigrant Serving Agencies.

[Fariborz Birjandian, Member-at-large, Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance (CISSA)]

Good morning. My name is Fariborz Birjandian. I'm the executive director of the Calgary Catholic Immigration Society, but also I'm the chair of the Alberta Association of Immigrant Serving Agencies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Again, welcome. You can proceed now to make your opening statement, if you have one.

[Reza Shahbazi]

Thank you.

The members of the Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance, also known as CISSA, represent 450 settlement agencies that provide direct services to refugees and immigrants in small communities and large cities across Canada. CISSA harnesses the expertise of the refugees and the immigrant settlement sector and is the sector's national voice to help build a Canadian society in which all immigrants and refugees are able to participate fully.

Thank you for the opportunity to present today. Our five delegates have been selected from 18 members of our board of directors who would have also welcomed the opportunity to be here today. However, as we only have in-person meetings once or twice a year, members of the board felt compelled to work on our strategy plan for the new fiscal year and beyond. That's why they are not here.

This September 2006, it is clear to our members and to the sector that we are embarking upon a new chapter in Canadian history. Not since the days of Clifford Sifton has Canada needed immigrants as we do today, to once again provide a new population and a critical workforce to stabilize Canada's effort to compete in an uncertain global economy.

The settlement sector is where the rubber hits the road, as they say in this country. In the past few decades we have experienced a wave of newcomers arriving at the doors of our agencies. We have shared their successes as well as their pain. As you know, the issues are many and complex: refugees arrive having suffered as victims of torture; highly educated doctors cannot get accreditation; families are separated because of long wait lists. I do not have to remind the learned members of this committee about the seemingly endless list. My task today and the task of the settlement sector is to make it all better. Within our agencies, within our communities, greater and greater needs and more and more groups want to partner with us to attract, retain, and integrate newcomers to our communities.

To do this well, and to do this effectively, the Canadian Settlement Sector Alliance needs your help--that's why we are here today. Out of the hundreds and possibly thousands of issues that we cope with every day, we believe that the Standing Committee on Immigration has to continue to be a leader for us to seek the knowledge that we require to successfully integrate the different categories of refugees and immigrants; to identify areas where government, regardless of which political party is in power, can support and enhance the work of the sector; and to be the committee that believes in the building of this great nation of ours.

At this time I would like to introduce my colleague, Mr. Birjandian, and he will give an update of the two reports that we have tabled with this committee.

Thank you.

[Fariborz Birjandian]

Thank you.

Thank you very much for this opportunity.

Every year we have about 250,000 and soon over 300,000 people who will come to this country. We know there are a million people who want to come to Canada and we are bringing them into this country.

Looking at the experience of other countries, European countries and the United States, and the success that Canada has, obviously the key is that when bringing people to this country we make sure they settle well, integrate, and become part of our community. I think Canada has a lot to be proud of, with many years in partnership with communities, average Canadians, and governments at all levels. Obviously we have created this very hospitable country that we are very proud of.

Personally, I came as a refugee to Canada, so my feedback will be partly on a personal level as well. I've been involved with settlement and integration for the past twenty years.

We have submitted two documents: one is a brief on the finance, the other one a settlement allocation model. They have certain principles and I want to go through them very briefly.

With the finance and budget resources that become available in settlement integration, basically the principles we have identified are to provide for comprehensive settlement and integration services for all newcomers who come to this country and want to become part of this great country; to assist new immigrants to build their social capital and economic support network; and to promote public awareness and develop partnerships between all levels that are involved. I want to emphasize that we have to recognize that settlement and integration really happens very much at a community level: a school level, a neighbourhood level, and also at a workplace level. I think the decision you make and the attention you pay to the very important issue of settlement integration really pays off all the way through to the communities, and they feel it in the community.

Also, the settlement allocation model that we have proposed and are hoping to develop a framework on is that spending money is basically responsive because immigration is very fluid. Obviously people move to one city more than other cities. There are issues we have with the distribution of immigrants overall in the country, with 90% of the immigrants going to a very few cities. We want to change that. The framework that we have proposed on the settlement allocation model is hopefully to find solutions to some of the issues we have with settlement and integration of the newcomers to Canada and at the same time develop capacity within local communities, other cities, provinces, and on a national basis.

The issue is quite serious. I know that we live in a democratic country and the politics of the day changes, but I really am here to urge you to pay special attention to the settlement integration of people who are coming into this country.

As a newcomer myself, I don't think any country has to bring people into their country, just like you don't have to invite people to your home, but once you do that, the expectation is that you have a plan for your guest coming. That simple analogy is a way of looking at Canada's attitude towards the thousands of people who are coming into this country--250,000 from a hundred different countries.

We have done a great job. I've been involved with some of the work in Europe, and I know that we have a lot to celebrate and be proud of, but we're moving 250,000 people, even more, to a very knowledge-based society from a hundred different countries. I think the challenge is that we have to make sure they settle and become a part of this country. If we don't, then I think it's not going to be a positive experience for us, as a country, or for them, as an immigrant coming to this country.

Thank you.

[Chris Friesen]

Thank you for the opportunity to address you today. My name is Chris Friesen; I am representing AMSSA, the provincial umbrella association.

In the context of British Columbia last year, to give you a snapshot to follow up what Fariborz was saying, almost 46,000 immigrants landed in British Columbia. It was the highest number in almost ten years. Of these, 40% were children and youth; 79% came from five Asian countries; the bulk—close to 86%—settled in the greater Vancouver area.

We are finding, as we talk across the country, that the capacity of our agencies to support immigrants so that they successfully integrate and are able to actively participate in Canadian society is being stretched. For over a decade now we haven't seen any increase in funding support to help with the outcomes of immigrants and refugees.

We're encouraged by the Conservative government and the funding that's currently on the table, the $307 million, and we hope this begins to address some of the compounding issues that originated in the nineties. One of the concerns CISSA-ACSEI has pertains to the issue of comparable services in the country—the issue that immigrants landing in B.C. or Quebec or Newfoundland will see and be able to access the same range of the services and supports they need in order to successfully integrate.

We have some concerns about what is happening in this country around how investments are being made with respect to immigrant settlement and integration services. A particular example that I wish to point out today is the issue of adult language classes, ESL classes. In the context of British Columbia and under the B.C.-Canada agreement, Cooperation on Immigration, we're seeing a disturbing trend toward fee-for-service programming for adult ESL classes.

What this has done is create a two-tier system within the country, such that immigrants in one province have to pay for services, but if they land in another province they do not have to pay for those services. The most recent example is the English language training program, a badly needed program that we have been advocating for years, around higher-level English language training that is geared to the labour market. In British Columbia, immigrants are now asked to pay one third of that program, whereas in the rest of the country it is provided free of charge.

Our concern with this issue of comparable services, of national standards, in the context of the new money that's being presented by the Conservative government, the $307 million, is that this money has to come along with some guiding principles and protocols about how the money is going to be invested. Our concern is that if we do not have comparable services in this country, then what we face is increasing interprovincial competition for immigrants where, as I say, immigrants can shop around to obtain higher levels of support in some areas of the country than in others.

As many people are aware, refugees and immigrants do not necessarily have the financial means to pay for their services. Under the previous Liberal government we were led to believe by the department when the “right of permanent residence” fee was introduced that immigrants were in fact prepaying their settlement and language services as part of their entrance into this country.

These are serious issues that we have serious concerns about, and they speak to the issue of providing adequate supports so that immigrants have the ability to successfully integrate and contribute to Canadian society.

The last comment I wish to make is that in February 2005 Simon Fraser University released a report called “A System in Crisis”, which was the first comprehensive look at adult ESL and settlement services in the country. It was a snapshot of what was happening at that particular moment in time. As you, as committee members of the standing committee, begin to outline your agenda for this next year, one area we feel strongly about is that you should consider taking on the development of a white paper; that this committee should tackle through a white paper an analysis of comparable services in this country, of what is currently being presented to immigrants and refugees across the country using the resources of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

Thank you very much for this opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

I have just one question. Is a lack of funding the major problem that settlement agencies and settlement organizations face in trying to assist refugees and immigrants to integrate into Canadian society? Is it the lack of funding that becomes the major problem? I was also interested in your comment on the inconsistencies, as you say, between one province and another in the funding they have to provide that service. Is a lack of funding the major problem?

[Chris Friesen]

I think we have to understand that close to two million immigrants and refugees have come to Canada in the last decade, and the sector that has been at the front line for over 50 or 60 years in providing adequate support services has not seen any increase in its baseline funding. If we are serious about dealing with our aging population, our demographics, our declining birth rate, and the skilled labour shortage, accelerating the number of immigrants coming to this country can't happen without an investment in ensuring that the capacity and the infrastructure are in place to support them. We know from the research on increased poverty rates, declining outcomes, declining labour market attachment issues--these are serious concerns that speak to social cohesion and other issues of Canadian society--that funding is definitely one of the issues we're grappling with.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

We have a speaking list right here.

[Reza Shahbazi]

We have two. We have Ms. Bridget Foster and Mr. Reichhold.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You're not finished your presentation, are you? Sorry to interrupt you.

[Reza Shahbazi]

No, sorry.

[Bridget Foster]

The men have obviously taken up too much of our ten minutes, so I will be very brief. I have just a couple of points on the Metropolis project. This is something I'm sure you're all familiar with.

As an organization, we are becoming somewhat concerned that the research being conducted isn't necessarily reflecting the interests we have as the settlement sector. We would like to see some effort made to harness the research so that there are some definite outcomes and benefits to the sector. To be a bit blunt, the research could come down a bit more to a level at which settlement agencies would feel comfortable being involved and discussing issues. At times it gets quite mind boggling, and I feel there are really some lost opportunities. We would like the Metropolis project to be sensitive to the contribution that we can make.

There is another issue I would like to bring to your attention. Possibly you know the passion that I've had, since 30 years ago I came to Newfoundland, not as a refugee, but as a very reluctant immigrant. I landed in Gander, and as Norm can tell you, June 17 in Gander is very cold, and it was quite foggy. I went by bus to St. John's, and I announced I was not staying in that godforsaken country. Anyway, 30 years later I'm still there. I think because I was so concerned about how I misjudged that place, I have spent a very big part of my working life trying to promote the province. I believe all of the Atlantic provinces have a tremendous amount to offer.

We need help, though. We're losing people who are going to work in other provinces. We're all getting older, and we need, I believe, to make a much greater effort to recruit newcomers. Through the agency I work with, we receive 155 government-assisted refugees per year. We could easily cope with at least--even in incremental stages--50 more, 100 more. And I think this is the same for all the Atlantic provinces.

Finally, the provincial governments are buying into this. They are recognizing that it perhaps is the last hope we have to make things vibrant. So if by working together you can ensure that our provinces are going to maintain their position, I think that will be a wonderful legacy.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We have just one more presenter. It is Monsieur Reichhold.

[Stephan Reichhold]

I’m Stephan Reichhold, from the Quebec Coalition. I’d like to speak to you briefly about one of the Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance’s projects.

As Chris mentioned earlier, I’m sure you’re aware of the fact that one of the greater challenges that we face in this sector throughout all of Canada is the problem of immigrant and refugee children and youth, whether they be first or second generation. We know that there are very few measures, and very few actions taken, within the reception and settlement services sector, that target this group even though a great many new immigrants are children and youth.

We plan to organize an important Canada-wide conference, probably during the spring of 2008, precisely to study this problem. We plan to have participants from within the settlement services sector, and also from all institutions and provinces, the private sector, every concerned group, to think about this question, to evaluate the present situation et to develop a national strategy for Canada to try to create services for this particular group of immigrants and adolescents.

We hope that the committee will support us in this important project.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

You've finished your presentation now, so we will go to our questioners.

You're first on the list, Andrew. If you would indicate if you're directing your question to an individual or to the committee generally, it might make it a little bit easier on the committee. The committee can feel free to refer the question on to someone who might have the particular expertise the committee member is talking about.

Andrew, please.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all of you. Thank you for your work with the settlement services.

Mr. Birjandian, you mentioned that you were a refugee; so am I, and so is Rahim Jaffer. A number of us around this table were not born in this country, either.

I flashed on an interesting thing, Ms. Foster, when you were making your presentation. In British Columbia you had 46,000 people to settle last year. I remember that in 1957, when we got to British Columbia, my father managed to buy a house as soon as he got a full-time job. Now, I dare say, when I look at British Columbia, that wouldn't be possible. If I look at the east coast, that opportunity still exists there. When I went out to the east coast, it was quite amazing: somebody can buy a house. To the extent that it can be made known to people coming over, I think that could be very helpful.

There is another issue, and I'm going to throw this out to all of you. Having sat on the committee for a long time, I see two major problems. The first is that our point system doesn't reflect the skills needed in this country. Therefore, we have an estimated undocumented workforce of anywhere from 200,000 to 500,000 people. We actually had presentations made to this committee by some Atlantic business groups, asking that undocumented workers be sent to them instead of being sent out of the country. I'm sure our researcher can find it some place.

I would like your comments on those two particular questions.

[Reza Shahbazi]

I can respond to at least one of the points in terms of the point system.

Definitely there could be some improvement in the point system. One of the biggest problems we are seeing in terms of assigning points to people with expertise and experience is when somebody applies abroad and they present their credentials, those credentials are not assessed based on Canadian standards, but the points are given based on what is provided. First of all, there is an impression given to the person that their credentials are being recognized by the Canadian government because they receive points for that. They receive points for their education, their work experience, so their education, their experience mean something. When they come to Canada, we all know, lots of regulatory bodies are under provincial jurisdiction. So there is suddenly a gap there in terms of their understanding of the Canadian government, particularly with people who come from countries where there is usually one level of government that makes all the decisions. And in Canada we have a very democratic society, so we have different levels of government and different levels of decision-making.

That, on its own, creates an expectation and understanding that is not really real compared with the actual situation in Canada. The other part is that those credentials have not been assessed properly. In the case of skilled workers, for example, if you're talking about the position of mechanic in Romania, a mechanic in Romania is not a mechanic, he is a millwright, but he get points as a mechanic. They come here, but they're millwrights, so we have a huge gap between their skills and what's being assessed here. It's not just the point system or the understanding of credentials. It's important that we incorporate that within our recruitment process, which is our point system.

The other side of it is the whole notion of a skilled worker. In many areas we really need unskilled workers. We need a simple plain labour force. Those are the people who cannot get through to come to Canada, as much as we need them, because the point system is prohibitive for them to be able to come.

These are some of the things that definitely should be looked at when we are looking at the point system.

In terms of the undocumented workforce, I'm sure my colleagues have more experience, particularly Fariborz.

Maybe you can respond to that.

[Fariborz Birjandian]

Going back to the first point, I think the question you're raising is that every country did receive immigrants. I think it's a global competition, obviously, and I don't think that magic bullet exists. It doesn't matter which country...to bring them here and right away they integrate and they become full participants. I think the key is how we manage when people come here. Currently what we are doing, basically, is we are recruiting people based on human capital. Yes, we need the mechanic here, or the plumbers. The problem is the countries that produce immigrants. If you look at the top ten countries that produce immigrants, I think the wisdom is the plumber is maybe a good plumber in India but may not be able to function in this very knowledge-based society. I think immigration has moved into recruiting based on human capital.

I think what we have not been doing very well is this. When people come here, we are very confident that they bring all this human capital, they're highly educated, and they are willing to do other things than their specific work. The problem we are facing, I think, is not maximizing the potential of these people coming to this country, because we have not been able to provide enough opportunity for them to transfer their other skills. There are many, many programs that we do across the country quite successfully. For instance, we have millwright or electrician programs, but when you go to the classroom, 80% of them are engineers. We get 30,000 engineers coming to this country, and the reality is, we may have only 5,000 jobs for those people. The key is the partnership or understanding that people come here with the skills and try to transfer them and make use of those skills.