Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 11th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Bilski.

Each caucus has up to seven minutes.

Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Nichols, sir, you represent the expats abroad. Do you have any facts and figures of how many Canadians live abroad at this very moment, who are registered with the embassies? Would you happen to have such a figure, sir?

[Allan Nichols]

Canadian expats registered with embassies is a difficult figure to come across. I've contacted over 150 different missions abroad. Due to the inability of the embassies to provide that information because of privacy laws, I don't have accurate numbers as far as registered numbers.

The Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada estimates the number to be in the neighbourhood of 2.7 million Canadians. Based on the estimates that the Canadian missions have given to me—they haven't given me registered numbers but have often given me estimates of the number of Canadians who live abroad—we come to a figure that is close to 2.5 million.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How many of those Canadians have families and have children born abroad?

[Allan Nichols]

I don't know exact numbers.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Estimate then.

[Allan Nichols]

I would hesitate to guess at the total number. Statistics Canada in 2006 came up with the figure of just over 70,000 Canadians who have declared that they work abroad. Those are people who have declared that they are working abroad. That was in 2006.

Given the mobile nature of this community, the 70,000 Canadians who were abroad then are likely not the same 70,000 Canadians who are abroad now, nor will it be the same 70,000 Canadians who are abroad in five years. To think that not a significant number of those 70,000 will have children would be naive.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

On this committee, sir, there are 12 members. I can clearly say that all of my colleagues on the Conservative side are probably first-generation Canadians. On this side, I know Ms. Mendes, Ms. Chow, and I are first-generation Canadians. I had a child born abroad. I have five daughters. My fifth daughter feels like a second-class citizen, and with Ms. Mendes it is the same thing.

Now, you're talking about adoptive kids. Please understand that I know you are behind the eight ball, certainly, but so are our children behind the eight ball.

How many generations can we give Canadian citizenship to? Is it the second, third, fourth generation of people born abroad? Should my daughter, who was born abroad, feel any different?

I have another question. If I could lump them together, maybe one of you can answer. Do you know how many countries in the world do not give citizenship to people born in that country--i.e., Saudi, Yemen, Japan?

[Allan Nichols]

I would respond to that question by looking at countries that are of similar nature to Canada in that we're immigrant-based, such as the United States, Australia, New Zealand. These three countries, as I stated in my opening comments, have introduced provisions to their laws. Their provisions are residency-based so that individuals who have remained in that country for a significant period of time satisfy the government that they have developed significant ties to that country. In the U.S. it's five years after the age of 14, in Australia it's two years.

I'm not specifying a certain number of years that one needs, but this is one that needs to have further study. It needs to be perhaps looked at for that.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I heard one of the panellists say that adoptive children, if they were to adopt, would be treated differently. Can you elaborate on that, please?

[Sandra Forbes]

Adopted children if they...?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I mean adopted children come in and they are foreign-born children. When they come in, they are deemed to be first-generation born-abroad children.

[Sandra Forbes]

Yes.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Perhaps you know of stories that you can share with us concerning foreign-born adopted children who come into the country, they get married and cannot have any children. They decide to go abroad and sponsor children, or they have children, like Mr. Andrew Bilski. Maybe they are originally from China or from Romania and they decide they want to support somebody else who comes from there and they want to adopt a child from that part of the world.

[Sandra Forbes]

So you're talking about if they want to--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Bilski has two daughters. One was born in Canada and one was born abroad.

Mr. Bilski, maybe you can answer that question, sir.

Should his second daughter, if it was the situation today...? If I decide that I want to adopt a child from the country of my origin, will that child be a Canadian?

[Dorinda Cavanaugh]

Not unless they apply by the permanent resident route and ask for Canadian citizenship once the child arrives here. There's no other alternative.

[Sandra Forbes]

They have to go through the sponsorship route. They have to sponsor their own child.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Which brings me to the point that should Ms. Mendes or my daughter be working outside and have a child, and they want to come back to Canada--let's say they've been working in Saudi Arabia--then that child has no passport.

[Sandra Forbes]

That's right.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

The child's stateless.

[Sandra Forbes]

That's right.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

So how, then, can my daughter come back and sponsor her child when the child doesn't have a passport?

[Sandra Forbes]

That's the problem with Bill C-37.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

So we are again generating another set of stateless Canadians. Bill C-37 just doesn't work.