Evidence of meeting #33 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was refugees.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Martin Collacott  Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
Peter Showler  Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa
Noa Mendelsohn Aviv  Director, Equality Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Julie Taub  Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual
Nathalie Des Rosiers  General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Toni Skarica  Crown Attorney, Ministry of the Attorney General of Ontario
Debbie Douglas  Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI)
Francisco Rico-Martinez  Regional Director, Toronto, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI)

4:10 p.m.

Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Dykstra.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Showler, you referred earlier to the detention system that Australia implemented. Could you tell me where your quoted facts and figures are from, and their date?

4:10 p.m.

Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa

Peter Showler

They're all in my brief, with footnotes. You'll have the exact numbers. There's also a quote from about a year ago by the minister—I forget his name—who stated and retracted the policy, saying that it was a bad idea. But it's all in the brief, sir.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Great. I look forward to looking at your briefs, because in March of this year the United Nations did a report on what was happening with respect to asylum seekers. The only country that actually saw a decline in asylum seekers was Australia. The UN actually stated that there was a reduction because of the issues around the detention policy that Australia passed, which therefore meant that asylum seekers were going to another country.

Sir, I'm not arguing with your point—

4:10 p.m.

Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa

Peter Showler

Let me say this. One of the quotes in there is from Alice Edwards, who is the principal researcher for the UNHCR. So I think you'll find it's quite the opposite.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I'm quoting from a report directly from the United Nations. I can give you the report. “Asylum Levels and Trends in Industrialized Countries” said that the numbers heading to Australia in 2011 fell 9%, from 12,640 in 2010 to 11,510 in 2011.

That is a decline, sir. You suggested there was an increase. I'm just stating for the record that there was actually a decline.

4:10 p.m.

Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa

Peter Showler

With regard to the increase in numbers, the mandatory detention policy was put in place in 1994. You will find the chart in there showing significant increases each year. It stopped in 2001, and there was a decline.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Sir, I'm just pointing out that from 2010 to 2011, there was a decline. The UN points to the detention as a potential reason for why the decline has taken place. I'm asking you only to acknowledge that, not to agree with it.

4:10 p.m.

Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa

Peter Showler

I'm saying that what caused the decline in 2001 was the Pacific solution, when they actually kept all boats from arriving in Australia and sent them to Nauru.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Well—

4:10 p.m.

Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa

Peter Showler

Then they achieved.... But sir, as a reasonable—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I'm just asking you. I'm just stating for you—

4:10 p.m.

Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa

Peter Showler

I'm not going to—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I'm asking the questions, right?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Stop the clock.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Showler may not like—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Well, we seem to be getting into a debate between the witness—

4:10 p.m.

Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa

Peter Showler

I don't want to get into a debate.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Sir, we seem to be getting into a debate—

4:10 p.m.

Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa

Peter Showler

I've stopped.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

—and could I suggest that both of you move on to something else?

4:10 p.m.

Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa

Peter Showler

Of course.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Sure.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

It appears that you disagree, and let's leave it at that.