Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 7th, 2012

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

No answer?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We're going to move on to Madam Groguhé....

Oh, you know what? Mr. Menegakis is right: that's the second time today I've done that.

The clock is not running, and you have another two minutes. I'm sorry.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I'm going to make a suggestion that if there are any concerns with regard to the information I'm going to ask you to share with this committee, that we can actually go in camera and have the information discussed just amongst the committee.

I'm just wondering if you have any high-profile cases that you can share with us where you have caught serious criminals due to information-sharing with other countries. And if it's an issue of concern that it be in camera, we can certainly go in camera, have the guests in the back leave, and it would just be amongst my colleagues here in this committee.

Are you able to share any stories?

[Ward Elcock]

Stories?

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I don't want to say stories: high-profile cases.

[Ward Elcock]

Well, we have had some successes in stopping the smuggling vessels. There was one that was seized by the Indonesians last year called the MV Alicia, and one more recently in Africa that was seized by the Ghanaian government.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Okay. Good answer. I was hoping for a little more detail, but I understand.

I just wanted to read something very quickly. It was in the National Post on May 2. It was discussing the cases with the Sun Sea migrants, and that another two have been issued deportation orders. I'm just going to read something, because it actually made my blood boil. It reads:

The passengers paid $5,000 to $10,000 in advance and pledged to pay 10 to 20 times that amount if the ship made it to Canada, the ruling said, adding the organizers of the smuggling operation had made millions in profits. “He was aware that he and the other passengers paid enormous amounts of money, specifically to evade Canada’s requirements for passports and visas,” according to the ruling.

I stress the word “evade”, because I think in many cases this is what is happening.

“He was aware that the voyage intended to bring migrants to Canada illegally.”

They were referencing one of the people who was being departed, part of, obviously, the human smuggling operation. I know your area of expertise is in that particular area. I think you actually said it already, or maybe Mr. Loren did, that human smuggling operations are becoming more sophisticated.

In your opinion, is that the case? And you mentioned one particular case where we were able to divert a ship from coming to Canada. Can you elaborate and tell us how many actual vessels you've stopped in the last number of years?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You know, my problem is that I made up for my error in giving you an extra minute, and now we are at eight minutes.

So I'd like to move on. I'm sorry.

That's unless the committee agrees, and I have a feeling that.... No.

Go ahead, Madame Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

One of the functions of intelligence services is to prevent acts that pose a threat to our interests and values, especially when it comes to the irregular arrival of foreigners.

What did you learn from the arrival that gave rise to Bill C-31, in other words, the situation involving the two boats off Canada's west coast?

[Ward Elcock]

I'm not quite sure what the point of the question was towards. Obviously, in terms of the introduction of the bill, many lessons were learned.

I think it was also learned that if we were going to be effective, we also had to add another string to the bow, which was prevention.

That's actually what my function is, mostly.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

If I understood correctly, you are taking action sooner, in other words, before irregular arrivals.

Could you tell us what methods you usually use?

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, it's actually relatively straightforward. It's simply a question of trying to coordinate the various activities of a number of Canadian intelligence and law enforcement agencies to work with our international partners, whether that be countries in various parts of the world who also have an interest in their sovereignty and in their laws not being violated, and to work also with international organizations, such as the UNHCR or IOM, to deal with the problems of human smuggling.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Very well.

You said you were not all that familiar with biometrics, generally speaking. But I would like to know which measures you think should be put in place to ensure that confidential information is protected and used solely as intended.

[Ward Elcock]

I think, Mr. Chairman, that question would be better addressed to the departments responsible for the policy—CIC, CBSA, and others.

From my point of view, I have worked with biometrics in the past, but as I said earlier, it's not a subject with which I have crossed paths in the last few years, and it isn't a key part of what we're trying to do. If we can prevent a vessel arriving, the issue of biometrics doesn't really arise.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay.

The Canada Border Services Agency cannot predict how many people might be detained under the provisions of Bill C-31. In fact, there have not been any recent mass arrivals, like those involving the Sun Sea and the Ocean Lady vessels. Obviously the bill was not in force at that time.

As far as the proposed amendments to Bill C-31 go, do you think the safe country designation could help to identify so-called fraudulent refugees?

[Ward Elcock]

To be perfectly honest, Mr. Chairman, that again is going back into an area of policy responsibility that isn't directly mine. It would be better addressed to the other departments that are responsible for those policy issues.

My guess is that it will be, but again, as I was saying, my function is largely looking at the issues related to prevention of arrivals, which means that some of those questions really come after anything I've done.

So it would be better to address those questions to other departments, I think.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I have no further questions, Mr. Chair.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Do we have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

No. Well, you do, but it's not enough.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Can we add—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You can't ask a question in 15 seconds.

Mr. Menegakis.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, but I believe it was Mr. Weston who was next. Maybe we gave you the wrong information.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, colleague.

A special welcome to Ward Elcock, a fellow Osgoode grad. Thanks for your help in keeping the peace in the 2010 Winter Olympics, much of which were in the riding that I have the honour to represent.

The NDP this afternoon, through my colleague Ms. Sims, raised the straw man of “prison-building agenda”, as she said. I think that's characteristic of many of the issues that have been brought up. We've heard that time and time again in the House, and in fact no prisons have been built by this government, nor are there any planned.

Much of what is being objected to, in my assessment, falls into a similar category. We have serious intelligence concerns that you have raised.

Admiral Loren, you've talked about consolidating different branches in the U.S. experience in order to be more sophisticated. Our own minister came here and said, frankly, we're not prepared for the kind of mass arrivals that we have seen in recent times.

I'll address my first question to you, Mr. Perchal. Are we correlating our information on gang behaviour, criminal activity, with foreign intelligence on terrorism so that we can identify some nexus there—the word “nexus” has been used several times—for instance in the case of a country like Iran?

[LCol Walter Perchal]

I think that's a complicated question and a very long answer.

The short version I would take on this is, no, I think what we have is a problem common to many countries, and certainly one that we have. We have both systemic and cultural issues that keep information from being moved to the places it needs to be efficiently and effectively. I think ministries between themselves are reluctant to share information. Again, that's both systemic and cultural.

I think what we need in the age of information is more information-sharing. The caveat to this is that information has to be protected for the purposes of national interests but also for the purposes of the individuals themselves.

Are we doing this well? No. Are we sharing information well with our allies? No. Are we sharing some information? Yes.

I think, and this is a point we've taken previously, we are particularly burdened by the fact that as a Canadian policy what we have chosen to do is not push our intelligence-gathering forward. Most particularly, we have chosen as a matter of policy—and I'm not going to comment on that—not to have a foreign intelligence service that would leverage and facilitate more information to allow us to make assessments further afield rather than having to try to make assessments once people have landed on the ground.