Evidence of meeting #46 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Claudette Deschênes  Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Amipal Manchanda  Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Neil Yeates  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Maybe we can start at least talking about what I find to be really fascinating, this global case management system, which integrates, as I understand it, what different offices are doing and makes us more efficient. If we don't get a chance to finish, maybe we can come back to it.

4:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Neil Yeates

Mr. Chair, I'll just start off and maybe you may want to come back to it later.

Essentially it's a system that allows us to do processing anywhere in the world, so for us it is a complete game-changer. It is helping us on the road to move, at some point in the future, to a totally paperless environment when you combine with online applications and computer-based processing. It has allowed us to rethink how we do processing right around the world and here in Canada. It's a huge step forward for our department.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Yeates.

I have Ms. Sims and Ms. Crowder. Who is first?

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I'm going to start off, if I may.

We've heard a lot about the backlog, and of course we know the backlog exists, but there are other ways to get the backlog down. One of them is to actually spend some resources to process the people who have been waiting so long.

One of the numbers that has been thrown out there is how much money we are going to be returning to those whose lives in Canada were deleted when we hit the delete button for 2008. But that can't possibly be the total cost; those are just the fees they paid.

Have you estimated how much the additional costs will be in order to facilitate that?

4:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Neil Yeates

Yes, we have. We estimate it will cost us $15 million over the next two to three years to issue those refunds.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you very much.

I'm going to hand it over to you, Jean.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses. It is nice to see you again, Mr. Yeates. I have seen you in other capacities.

I just have a couple of brief comments, which I don't expect you to comment on, because they're political.

I want to start with the ministerial instruction. Much has been made on the opposite side about how the opposition parties opposed ministerial instruction. Of course they opposed it for very good reasons. Part of our duty as parliamentarians is to have oversight, and with ministerial instruction when too much power is invested in a minister it means we don't have the transparency and accountability that Canadians demand of their governing system. So I don't expect you to comment on that, but that was a good reason for parliamentarians to oppose that.

As Ms. Sims points out, one of the ways of dealing with a backlog of course is to put more resources into it. It is unfortunate he couldn't stay here for further questions, because this is a very complex matter, but the minister indicated that he appreciated hearing from the committee about recommendations to deal with the backlogs. I understand that some of the recommendations were things like adding more resources, raising levels, and creating an appropriate balance between processing old backlog applications and new applications.

Many of us have very sad stories about wiping out.... It is an interesting way to deal with backlogs. I'm sure health care and other systems would probably love to legislate away backlogs, but it seems only immigration gets to do that.

We've got cases in our ridings where people have literally been waiting years to come to the country. It means they put their lives on hold in their own country. These are skilled professionals. I was at a funeral where a woman was weeping, and I thought it was because somebody had died. It was actually because her sister, who has been on the list for seven years, is not going to come.

So when the department was making recommendations to the minister, did they consider any of these alternatives in terms of reducing the backlog?

4:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Neil Yeates

There is always an option to increase levels. I think the big decision initially is how many people we want to admit.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

What about additional resources, though—not just increasing the numbers, but additional resources?

4:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Neil Yeates

That's really not so much the issue from our point of view. It really depends on the annual levels plan and how many cases are in each category. We're trying to balance that. If there are 17 different categories in the levels plan, about how many will any government try to balance? How many does the government of the day wish to admit in each category? That is really our fundamental limitation.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Ms. Crowder, I think you are getting into policy. Perhaps Mr. Dykstra could respond.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Actually I'll hold off. I'll stay away from the policy.

Thank you, Mr. Tilson. I appreciate that, and I will stay away from policy.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You'll be a good girl?

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

I'll be a very good girl.

So what I'm going to ask is, did the department do an analysis on the additional resources that would be required to deal with the backlog?

4:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Neil Yeates

Well, we've always known what it would take. I don't have a rough number in mind.

As I say, that really wasn't the issue for us. It really was how many people do you want to admit, and we will process them.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

But going back to the analysis, there was an analysis done on the resources that would be required to deal with the existing backlog. Is that information available to the committee?

4:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Neil Yeates

Not specifically. As I say, that really wasn't the issue for us. It was how many people are to be admitted under the federal skilled worker category.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

My understanding is that additional resources were not an option that was being considered.

4:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Neil Yeates

The first question for us was the levels. It starts with the levels.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Do I have any time left?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Well, you know, I'm going to let Mr. Dykstra comment. You went further.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

I'm just asking for an analysis.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I know. You've got to test the whole thing.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Well, yes, the analysis was with your assumptions that resources were the only option that may have been presented.

It has been clear through the last number of months—in fact, years—when you look at the reports themselves. And when we actually did the study on the backlogs, it became clearly evident that the issue surrounding what created the issue of the backlog had nothing to do with resources and had nothing to do with staff. It had to do with the volume of intake we were receiving. And the processing times—when you look at them—are actually extremely reasonable and done very well.

The problem is that there is no cap on the number of applications that can be received. To your point, Ms. Crowder—in terms of the individual you spoke of who had been waiting seven years, for example—when you have no control over intake and you allow every single individual or family to apply, it is thereby going to create a tremendous backlog, and that is what we have been dealing with over the last number of months and years.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Just back to the issue around skilled workers, the minister again made a statement that part of this was to deal with skilled workers. Well, of course the human resources committee has been dealing with the issue around labour shortages in this country, and it's not as simplistic as it appears. There is a mismatch between the workers who are available in many cases and the jobs that are available. Did your department do any work with the human resources committee around assessing that gap, that mismatch?