Evidence of meeting #48 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was justice.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jayne Stoyles  Executive Director, Canadian Centre for International Justice
Loly Rico  Vice-President, Canadian Council for Refugees

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Very good, thank you.

In July 2011, Vic Toews, the Minister of Public Safety, published a list of people accused of, or complicit in, war crimes and crimes against humanity. What do you think about that approach?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Centre for International Justice

Jayne Stoyles

I do think that singular focus on deportations is really the heart of the point that I want to make today. I think that really misses this opportunity for justice, and I think not all of the approaches would cost money to implement.

The things I didn't raise are more from the organizations that are working more closely with immigrants and refugees, but I will say this approach raises some real concerns as well that people are being labelled publicly as being accused of these crimes as though they've actually been through a criminal process, and they haven't. They have been through an immigration approach, which requires a much lower burden of proof than what we have in criminal law. That's a concern about putting this out publicly. I would much prefer that the RCMP had the resources to work with communities and to conduct the investigations without this very public kind of naming and photos.

We're also concerned when people are simply sent back not just because of the lack of opportunity for justice in credible cases but also because they themselves might be subjected to serious human rights violations, made more likely by the fact that they've been given this label without necessarily having had a full investigation against them. It is an approach that certainly has many problems and challenges.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Merci.

Some of you are watching the clock. We are going to go an extra five minutes, because we started late.

Mr. Weston.

June 12th, 2012 / 4:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As a Canadian, it's always a matter of pride for me to stand alongside people who stand up for vulnerable people. I really applaud both of you for the work you've done. I've been looking at your biographies while you've been speaking.

I understand that you have a very distinguished background, Jayne, with the Tarnopolsky award to your credit, and even two nominations for a Nobel Peace Prize as part of a group.

Loly, with your background from El Salvador, you have a very powerful story to tell. You know the plight of people who are refugees.

Thanks to both of you for being here and for what you do.

As a lawyer myself, and as someone who's done international law and cares a lot about human rights, I asked myself, what is the most powerful thing we have in Canada in our protection of refugees? I think it may be the trust we have in the system, and that trust is there partly because we know we can be safe.

So I look at the balance, and I say that as long as Canadians are confident that we have safety mechanisms there, then the populace, who are our bosses, we elected representatives, will be onside and will allow us to continue to put our weight behind our refugee program and helping people in the kinds of situations you describe.

Again, I come back to my colleague Ms. James' earlier questions. It seems to me that if we don't have a very effective removal system and a good detention system, then we risk eroding the trust of the populace. Because if we get a few bad situations.... It only takes a few bad situations to come about before people start calling upon all of us, as members of Parliament, to throw down the portcullis and say, “Sorry—no more”.

I'd just ask you to reflect on that. Maybe you can each give us a minute on that.

4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, Canadian Council for Refugees

Loly Rico

One of the things that I'm thinking about your comments is that if you see what we are recommending, we are not saying to give freedom to the bad guys you are talking about. We are trying to be just and fair with refugees. Sometimes we have people in detention who shouldn't be there, just because they need to provide an ID document, and that could be a woman with children or even a family.

What we are looking at is how we can—with the CBSA, the holding centres, the community, and the refugee houses—make sure that these people, who do not need to be in detention, can be integrated into the community. And they can be reporting to CBSA themselves. In that way, you save money, but also we harm people less, because they don't need to be there. Those are the people I'm talking about.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Now, Jayne, I'm also thinking about the screening. It just seems to me to be self-evident that we need to be doing this screening. We need to identify in advance. We need to keep people out. Otherwise, we'd lose the whole system that we crave to keep protecting.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Centre for International Justice

Jayne Stoyles

Yes, and I certainly wouldn't say that the screening should not be happening and that there should not be some effort to take a look at whether there are these allegations against war criminals. Because then, of course, we'd have more people who are the victims living in Canada in the same communities as the perpetrators. That's not a situation we want to see.

I think, as you say, though—understanding that I'm not sure you're going to prevent all cases with whatever system you have in place—it is really about looking at the removal system and knowing that there will be some situations where it's appropriate to use it.

I guess that in terms of the trust, one of the things that crossed my mind is that for us, as victims rights advocates—to sort of turn it the other way—if we see our government officials really taking a holistic approach to this, really making a commitment to justice and negotiating that, and supporting the kinds of things that I've seen, then we also would feel more inclined to say, yes, absolutely, there are situations where deportation is appropriate and needs to be done, situations where that's the only option. We'd absolutely support that.

We get into a situation of wanting to really oppose it because we're not seeing a holistic approach being taken.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Weston.

Mr. Zimmer, welcome to the committee. You have three minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Chair, I'll make it a good three, I hope.

I just wanted to speak to you and thank you for coming today. As my colleagues also have mentioned, we have compassion for immigrants as well. My grandparents were immigrants. I'm sure most of ours were at some point, so we come at it with that in mind. We're not against that.

The question I have for you today is specific to electronic travel authorization and the fact, as my colleague Mr. Weston has stated, that this system that people want to come to, we want to preserve that. We want to preserve the good part that is Canada, and doing so with an authorization that's preventative, so that they don't show up on our shores and we then have to send them back, essentially, or we capture them before they get here.

I just wanted to know your thoughts on that. Do you not see that as a good option?

I'll ask both Loly and Jayne.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Centre for International Justice

Jayne Stoyles

In a way what I was going to say is that it's not really my area of expertise. I'm sure there are others who have a better sense, really, of what's happening in terms of the various specifics around how people are tracked and identified. We work more at the stage of, when people have come here, what we would like to see. I'm probably not in the best position to comment.

4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, Canadian Council for Refugees

Loly Rico

My comment will be that sometimes our way of protecting ourselves is leaving out some people who need to be protected here in Canada. I can bring it up because I also work with victims of human trafficking. Sometimes if you stop them when they are in a country, like in a South Asian country, and they stay there, these people will come here in another way, which is by trafficking. That's our concern.

If we are too rigid or put in too many obstacles, it will be more difficult for the real victims—as you know, the UNHCR has said the number of refugees has been increasing—to look for protection. They will be trapped with the smugglers and with the traffickers. That's my reflection.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

I'll actually defer to Mr. Dykstra for the rest of my time.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You have one minute.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Claudette Deschênes was actually here. We talked a little bit about the whole issue of identification. For one of the issues she brought forward, her quote was the following:

In the majority of cases we anticipate that applicants would receive confirmation of their travel authorizations within minutes. The U.S. has already successfully implemented a similar system whereby over 98% of applicants are automatically approved for travel, and we anticipate the ETA system will be in place in Canada no later than 2016.

This provision will actually also prevent unnecessary detentions of war criminals and people who are actually inadmissible in Canada because of a serious criminal conviction. I suppose a lot of this gets at what you're talking about, Jayne, in terms of identifying, as quickly and as early as possible, whether or not the individual faces a longer detention period, potentially, or a detention because of lack of identification.

I'd like to hear whether or not you're both supportive of the biometric aspect of this. I know that the Auditor General, when he was—

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

That was one minute to ask and answer, not one minute to ask the question. Maybe she could give her answer.

4:35 p.m.

Vice-President, Canadian Council for Refugees

Loly Rico

At the CCR, we don't have a position on biometrics. I cannot speak to that. One of the things I can say is that as soon as possible the person can be identified, the more easily they can be released. That's not the problem.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Unless it's very brief, Ms. Stoyles.... Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I'd like a response to that. I'd be happy to give an extra minute or two so she could respond. I will not ask any more questions.

4:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Centre for International Justice

Jayne Stoyles

I can be extremely brief, then, because it's really not my area of expertise. I'll just also say that I do think anything that contributes to really identifying people who are in fact war criminals, which would facilitate an investigation or other remedies, is certainly positive.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you very much, on behalf of the committee, Ms. Stoyles, Ms. Rico, for coming and giving your comments to us. It's been most helpful.

Before I adjourn, for obvious reasons the meeting on Thursday will be cancelled, so the next meeting will be in a week.

This meeting is adjourned.