Evidence of meeting #78 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was applications.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Orr  Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Neil Yeates  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good morning. This is the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

This meeting is televised. We're studying the main estimates. If you look at number two on the agenda, we're also looking at the supplementary estimates, even though they were deemed to have been passed. You're free to ask questions on the supplementary estimates as well.

We have before us the Honourable Jason Kenney, who is the Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism, along with members from the department to assist him.

Good morning, Mr. Minister. You have up to 20 minutes to make a presentation to the committee. Thank you very much for coming to us.

April 25th, 2013 / 8:55 a.m.

Calgary Southeast Alberta

Conservative

Jason Kenney ConservativeMinister of Citizenship

Good morning, and thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm accompanied by Deputy Minister Neil Yeates; Les Linklater, ADM for policy; Robert Orr, ADM for operations; and Amipal Manchanda, who is the chief financial officer at CIC.

Thank you very much, colleagues.

I think the estimates before you are straightforward and self-explanatory. However, I thought I would focus my remarks on a critical issue, which was the subject of a study of your permanent standing committee, and that is the question of backlogs. We've made enormous progress in backlog reduction.

You all know that one of the most vexatious problems in our immigration system for many years has been that of enormous backlogs, which reflected a certain degree of dysfunctionality in our immigration system. You'll know that a couple of years ago our total immigration backlog had capped out. It was plateaued for two or three years at about one million people waiting for decisions on their applications, in many cases for over seven years, across a range of our programs. We have taken determined action to reduce those backlogs in order to move from a slow and passive immigration system to one that is fast and flexible, and better connected to the needs of our labour market, our economy, so that we can do a much better job of using immigration as a tool of economic growth.

One thing I'd like to remind committee members of is that backlogs were not and never have been a function of operational inefficiency. When I hear some members suggest, even after having studied the question of inventories and backlogs for months, that if we were simply to hire more staff to generate more visas, as if this were some sort of remedy, I'm disappointed. I think after the study this committee held, surely members would understand that in fact backlogs have not been a function of operational resources.

Indeed, for the past seven years this department has been achieving its operational targets, and has been admitting the number of permanent residents that we planned to. Rather, it was a function of policy, whereby we were required to receive and ultimately process a potentially unlimited number of applications in a world where, of course, we limit the number of immigrants we admit.

Consequently, year after year we were, as I say, overselling the plane, as it were, to Canada. We were selling more tickets than there were seats available.

I think the best possible metaphor for the development of backlogs is to imagine Immigration Canada running an airline, which has a capacity, let's say, of 255,000 seats, but every year we were selling something in the range of 400,000 tickets. We could have tripled the number of flight personnel. We could have hired more pilots. We could have hired more flight attendants and gate attendants, but there were still just 255,000 seats on the plane. There were still a limited number of opportunities for permanent residency based on the immigration plan, which in turn is based, in part, on the government's understanding, at least, of the public consensus for the practical limits of immigration.

The real problem wasn't how many staff were running that airplane, because we were filling it up year after year, we were occupying every available seat. The problem was the 150,000 people to whom tickets where sold and for whom there were not seats available.

That happened year after year. That was a function not of operational inefficiency on the part of the department, although it could and always does seek additional efficiencies, it was rather a function of bad policy. We, the politicians, have to take the blame for that. Really, I think ultimately that policy mistake was made in IRPA, and it wasn't helped, frankly, by subsequent judicial decisions.

To the previous government's credit, it actually did try, following the adoption of IRPA, to take measures to reduce the backlog, at least in the skilled worker program, which were ultimately unsuccessful at court.

We ended up with a backlog of one million people. You'll see this in the deck.

Mr. Chairman, this is the point I'd really like to emphasize with you.

Had we not taken action, we would have had a total backlog of 2.23 million people by 2015. That means that, in two years, we would have a backlog of 2.2 million people, with ridiculous wait times.

That's the direction in which we were headed.

Some people, Chairman, suggest that the solution to all of this could and should have been simply to increase immigration levels. Let's expand the airplane. Let's buy another airplane. Let's add seats on the airline by increasing the immigration levels. At least that proposed remedy sort of addresses the mathematical problem of backlogs but inadequately.

You can see on one of these slides—I don't have the number here—that had we increased immigration levels to 1% of the population, which has been advocated by some political parties, that is to say increased levels in the range of admitting 340,000 permanent residents rather than say 260,000, and done that without limiting the number of new applications and without more aggressive backlog reduction, the backlog by 2015 would stand at 1.28 million. The backlog would have continued to grow. You could increase levels massively from 260,000 to 340,000, but if you didn't limit intake of new applications, the backlog would continue to grow.

This is a challenge.

In fact, Mr. Chair, by proposing an increase in immigration levels, it might be difficult to resolve the problem of growing backlogs.

You'll see on the next slide a huge backlog reduction. We've gone from a total backlog at the end of 2011 of just over 1 million to a backlog last month of 616,000, a 40% reduction, Mr. Speaker. You'll see the largest production there is in the economic classes, a reduction from 688,000 to 326,000, and in family class from 238,000 to 202,000.

I find it interesting, Mr. Chairman, that after all the criticism the government has taken for its robust efforts to reduce these backlogs so we could actually have an efficient immigration system, I've been criticized for having gone too far into backlog reduction on the economic category. Now people are asking why I've neglected the family class and why I haven't more aggressively reduced the backlogs there.

I find that somewhat ironic because in fact legitimate criticism can be directed in my direction for not having taken firmer action faster on backlog reduction. But quite frankly, every single measure we took, from limiting the number of new applications, to putting moratoria in place for several programs, to of course the legislative decision to return applications to some 280,000 people in the federal skilled worker queue, all of those were opposed.

Nevertheless, notwithstanding that opposition, we see that enormous progress has been made. I'll just run you through how some of that is happening. You'll see on the next slide the total immigration backlog again. We would have been on track to well over 2 million persons had no actions been taken, which would have been massively irresponsible. I estimate that at that point we'd be sitting on average wait times of well over 14 years, and of course, it would just keep growing ad infinitum.

Instead, as you can see, with the introduction of the action plan for faster immigration in the end of 2008, which was essentially to begin using the new tool of ministerial instructions to limit new applications, in the case of the federal skilled worker program, we've managed to plateau the growth of the backlog. Then in 2011, you'll see the impacts on the moratorium on new applications for the immigrant investor program, the entrepreneurs program, the moratorium for new applications on the federal skilled worker program, and the two-year temporary pause in applications for the parents and grandparents program.

Then, ultimately, you'll see the impact of the legislative reduction of old pre-2008 FSW applications bringing us down to 436,000. Then you'll see the differences broken down by program.

Just to run you through these very quickly, on the federal skilled worker program, had no action been taken, we'd be on track for a backlog of 1.58 million persons with a 15-year wait time by the end of 2015. Instead, you'll see that we are now at under 100,000. We're at about a 90,000-person backlog with about a 12-month wait time, on track as promised to a just-in-time system that processes new applications for skilled workers in months rather than years, with a working inventory. That is to say, an inventory that's smaller than the projected annual level of admissions.

Similarly, on parents and grandparents, you'll see that in the third quarter of 2011 we introduced the action plan for faster family reunification, which has helped us to take a 167,000-person backlog with an eight-year wait time down today to 125,000-person backlog with a five-year wait time. If we continue with this policy approach, which involves a higher than ever level of admissions, admitting 25,000 parents and grandparents per year—that is, by the way, a 60% increase over the average level of admissions in that program over the long term—and we continue with limited numbers of new applications, we will be on track to a two-year wait time by 2015.

I'll tell you this, Mr. Chairman. If you're applying for your parents to come to Canada, a two-year wait time is a heck of a lot better than an eight-year wait time growing to a 15-year wait time, which is where we would be, frankly, had we followed the advice of some and taken no action.

The business categories, you'll see, involve essentially the entrepreneur and investor immigrant programs. Again, we were capped out at a backlog of 107,000 with a nine-year wait time—that was just last year—and we were on track for a backlog of 250,000 and 20-year wait times. Yes, you heard me—20-year wait times—but with the pause on new applications, we're on track to see a gradual reduction in that program.

One program on which we have not taken any action yet is the live-in caregiver program, and this is a concern that I point out to you, colleagues. We are now sitting on a backlog of 45,000 people with their permanent residency applications in the queue. There's a five-year wait time, which, to me, is unacceptable. In fact, that doesn't really disclose the whole truth, because there are also the caregivers who are currently here on a temporary status and have not yet qualified for permanent residency. If we count those two inventories together, we are looking at upwards of 80,000 people and about a 10-year inventory.

We've also made enormous progress not through limiting new applications but through other measures such as the introduction of the Protecting Canada's Immigration System Act, which, of course, limits access to the humanitarian and compassionate application process for failed asylum claimants, replacing it effectively with the new fully fact-based appeal at the refugee appeal division for the vast majority of claimants.

We've also, as you know, restricted access to H and C for certain kinds of very serious criminals such as terrorists and members of organized criminal networks. As a result of those measures, you'll see that the backlog, which was bouncing around the 25,000 level, is going to come down to a couple of thousand. That is to say we'll be processing those H and C applications very quickly rather than over the course of 18 months or so.

Finally, I have very good news. It's not in this chart, but as a result of the Balanced Refugee Reform Act and its implementation last December, together with additional resources that we gave to the IRB and the CBSA to deal with the asylum system, we have seen a dramatic reduction in the asylum claimant backlog.

It had capped out about 18 months ago, at the beginning of 2012, at 60,000. We're now at about 28,000 claimants who are waiting for their asylum hearings. That's very good news, because with the better than expected results of the Balanced Refugee Reform Act, with a 65% reduction in the number of new claims, this means that we are even further accelerating backlog reductions. Should current trends continue, we will be on track for a working inventory, as it were, meeting the new timelines of the new asylum system within a couple of years.

We have seen enormous progress in almost all areas of our immigration system when it comes to this acceleration. It is not just a matter of figures; it is a matter of lives and people. We want to give qualified individuals reasonable access to Canada.

I would remind my colleagues that we are competing for the talent of the best potential immigrants who could help us build Canada. New Zealand and Australia accept qualified immigrants in a matter of a few months. We cannot contend with that competition when we have a system that takes a number of years to do the same thing.

Furthermore, to link potential economic immigrants to available jobs in our economy, in our labour market, we need an accelerated, fast and flexible system. We are in a very good position. We will soon have a new expression of interest system, in other words, this huge reform of the economic immigration system, which will be in place by the end of 2014.

I intend to bring forward legislative amendments—hopefully in the second budget implementation act, Mr. Speaker—for legislative authorities for the expression of interest system, on which I have briefed this committee and which we hope to put in place by the end of 2014. That system is predicated on a fast and responsive system. Thanks to the enormous progress we have made and will continue to make on backlog reduction, that new system will be in a position to work and to deliver results for Canadians.

Thank you for your attention. I would be pleased to answer your questions.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Minister Kenney.

Mr. Opitz.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us this morning.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here today.

Minister, as you stated, on May 4 the new FSW program with the updated criteria will be open for applications. You recently announced that there's going to be an eligible occupation list and there will be a limited number of applications accepted. Can you please explain why you choose to proceed in this way? Second, is this part of the government's plan to ensure that large backlogs are not allowed to be created in the system again?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

As I mentioned, Mr. Opitz, we're now at a backlog in the federal skilled worker program of just a little over 90,000. Given our plan to admit about 55,000 federal skilled workers this year and the fact that a certain number of the applications we process are refused, this means that we're right around a one-year processing inventory for the federal skilled worker program.

You know, some could make an argument that we should not reopen the program for new applications until we're down to less than a 12-month inventory, but as you know, we've made some major policy changes to retool the federal skilled worker points grid. We changed the grid after extensive research, analysis, and consultation. For example, it will place greater emphasis on younger applicants, those with higher levels of language proficiency, and those with Canadian work experience.

But perhaps even more importantly, effective as of the new intake, we have introduced the requirement that applicants for the skilled worker program attach to their applications an evaluation of their education, done by a designated body. This seems modest, but I think it's one of the most important immigration reforms in immigration policy in decades in this country, because finally we will be able to assess whether the education of applicants for economic immigration is at or close to the Canadian standard. We will now know whether the degrees and diplomas of applicants are likely to be accepted by Canadian employers, and indeed perhaps by Canadian professional regulatory bodies, before admitting those applicants. This will dramatically reduce the number of new immigrants who end up facing the survival-job problem.

Because of those policy changes, frankly, we wanted to open the skilled worker program to a limited number of new applications—in this case 5,000 in total—to essentially do a test run of the new selection criteria, including the educational assessment. So I think there was a strong argument to open the door to a limited number of new applications, put them through those new criteria, and see how the educational evaluation is working and what kinds of applicants we're getting based on the new points grid.

Finally, we decided to go with an occupational list—we selected 28 occupations—based on HRSDC data that project the most in-demand occupations in the future, and on consultations with provinces.

Also, Mr. Opitz, I wanted to avoid receiving applications from certain kinds of licensed or regulated professions where immigrants have a really hard time getting their licences, such as physicians. We have a huge surplus of people with medical degrees versus the number of residency positions available for them. There are Canadian medical grads from our medical schools, Canadians who have medical degrees from abroad, and immigrant physicians all vying for a finite number of residency positions. I didn't think, just to take that one example, that it made any sense to increase that surplus of foreign-trained medical grads over the number of scarce residency positions. I thought we could avoid that pain for those people by limiting the number of professional occupations.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you.

The opposition has been critical of the step the government has taken to modernize the visa application process, and they've claimed for months that this is going to negatively affect Canada's ability to process and attract visitors such as students and others. Yet a month or two ago, Minister, I saw that you announced that 2012 was a record year for the number of visitor visas and student permits that were issued.

Could you please explain, sir, how the modernization of the application process is actually having a positive impact for Canada?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Yes, thanks. Together with all the policy changes we're making, there's an ongoing process, as you say, of modernization on the operational side of the department, the most important element of which was the adoption and global rollout of our new IT platform, the global case management system.

Because of that we are getting more efficient. For example, we are now accepting temporary resident visa applications globally online. We're accepting those applications online. The number of online applications is still relatively small, but as our visa offices become more familiar with processing online applications, we believe that will enhance efficiency, as it has done for other countries that have done the same.

But I would actually say, Mr. Opitz, that the substantial increase in the number of temporary resident visas that we issued—the record number—is largely a function of demand. We have seen a huge growth in demand for people visiting or studying in Canada from places like China and India in particular, and other countries as well. Brazil has had very large growth. In China we have seen a tripling of the number of visitor visas, largely driven by tourism in the past couple of years.

Actually let me be very transparent with the committee. We're struggling to keep on top of the growth. Based on our projections we continue to see the same velocity of growth in markets like China for tourism to Canada. We are going to have a challenge to maintain our reasonable processing standards for those TRV applications, which is why I'm pleased that budget 2013 has included additional resources for my department to accelerate processing of temporary resident visas in critical markets like China, Brazil, and India, which will be offset by a slight increase in TRV fees.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Minister.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you.

Ms. Sims.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you very much.

Minister, it's great to have you here, and for such a length of time as well.

Minister, I am sure it will come as no surprise to you that I want to begin this morning talking with you about the Conservatives' mismanagement of the temporary foreign worker program. I want to ask about that program and some of the many problems with it, because I see nothing in votes 1 or 5 indicating money has been designated toward improving it or overhauling it.

Minister, when you were scheduled to appear before this committee on March 7, I planned at that time to begin with this same topic by referring to the HD Mining International debacle in my home province. Last month the Federal Court agreed to a judicial inquiry into the process that allowed HD Mining International to bypass qualified Canadian workers and instead hire 21 workers as temporary foreign workers.

Minister, we can point fingers at HRSDC, and indeed we should because that department is responsible for inaccurate labour market opinions—LMOs and ALMOs—but it is CIC, your department, that granted the work permits.

Then your visit was pushed forward to today, and I can also reference a scandal from this month. That is RBC's capacity, within the bureaucracy of this Conservative government, to fire skilled Canadian workers in exchange for cheaper foreign labour. Again, Minister, it is your department that would have granted those work permits.

The last time we had the opportunity for a formal exchange, Minister, was at heritage committee last November. At that time you mentioned a departmental review of the temporary foreign worker program by referring to a press release on the CIC website. That press release is dated September 2011.

Minister, can you tell me what became of that review initiated 18 months ago? Who was consulted? Who will be consulted? When will it wrap up? How was any real investigating done without moneys allotted to improving it? Also, can you tell me how many work permits are issued annually for fields that do not currently require LMOs or ALMOs?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, I'll correct one thing. I don't appreciate the characterization of “the bureaucracy of this Conservative government”. The public service is professional and non-partisan regardless of the elected government, and I think we should recognize and appreciate their good work.

In terms of the consultations that the member asked about, there have been multiple consultations. The one to which she refers was started in 2011 and there's been a second round of negotiations recently, conducted by both my department and HRSDC. Minister Finley and I, together with other members of the government, met with stakeholders. I would be happy to provide Ms. Sims with a list of those who made submissions, but I could tell you that, for example, I met with a round table of union leaders and representatives of various business and employer groups. We tried to obtain balanced input on the program.

We recognize that we need to constantly calibrate the temporary foreign worker program to make sure it's working in the best interests of Canadians and the Canadian economy. Nobody wants to displace available Canadian workers through accessing people from abroad. However, we all recognize that there are acute labour shortages in various regions and industries.

I know Ms. Sims recognizes that because when I saw her at the heritage committee she and her colleagues were demanding that we provide faster and more streamlined access to temporary foreign workers to work in the video gaming industry. That was just one particular interest that they happened to be responsive to because, I guess, they'd been lobbied. But Mr. Chairman, there are multiple industries like that with evidence that they are facing acute labour shortages right across the skills spectrum.

In answer to the member's second question, I can say that labour market opinions were required in terms of the number of entrants into the temporary foreign worker program in 2011. I'm sorry I don't have more recent data. Among those workers, 70,000 came in on the basis of labour market opinions and 120,000 were exempt from labour market opinions. Those include the spouses of some temporary foreign workers, those coming in under free trade and provincial and territorial agreements, and people such as university researchers and those with intra-company transfers. But the largest category is people coming in under youth mobility agreements. That was about 55,000 people in 2011.

I think people perhaps don't really understand the breadth of what we call the temporary foreign worker program. Kids coming in from Australia for 10 months to work as ski instructors on their working holiday at Whistler are considered temporary foreign workers. They don't come with the intention of staying permanently. They're filling available jobs, and these are reciprocal agreements. That constitutes the single largest portion of the TFW program.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you, Minister.

I did not mean to say anything negative about the staff at CIC or anywhere else my term bureaucracy covered. They follow the rules that ministers and governments give them.

Minister, on Tuesday I met with executives from ACTRA, CAEA, the teamsters, and others. What became very clear is that many occupations do not require either ALMOs or LMOs for work permits and there's a list of occupations that require neither LMOs nor work permits.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We're going to run out of time. Maybe you better let him comment here. I'll have to cut him off.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I'm aware of those concerns, and my deputy advises that senior officials in my department met with ACTRA this week to discuss those issues. The government's been very clear that we will make changes to the temporary foreign worker program. One of the changes we are looking at is to review the list of occupations that are LMO-exempt. That includes the performing arts.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you.

Mr. Lamoureux.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to comment on three different areas. Let me start off by commenting on what the minister feels very boastful about this morning, and that is the reduction in backlogs.

Mr. Chair, as opposed to patting the government on the back, I think it's important that Canadians realize that this minister, unlike any other Minister of Immigration, felt the best way to deal with the backlog was to push the delete button. You don't deal with a backlog by wiping out tens of thousands of applications. I think it's important to ensure that this is on the record. The minister hit the delete button and hundreds of thousands of individuals were deleted. That's how he dealt with the backlog.

Mr. Chair, another way in which he attempts to deal with the backlog is that he puts a freeze on the parents of someone who has come to Canada, and after being in Canada for a number of years, quite often wants to be able to sponsor their parents. In this case, the minister is saying no. We anticipate, and I'd be interested in knowing from the minister at some point, likely not today because of the time constraints, when he's going to take that freeze off parents so they can once again be sponsored.

I want to comment on the citizenship issue. The minister has probably been the worst Minister of Immigration and Citizenship in dealing with the issue of citizenship. The waiting period for a landed resident to get citizenship is unacceptable. We have 338,000 individuals in inventory today who are waiting two-plus years, many of whom, Mr. Chair, could have their residency called into question. It's been estimated that it could range anywhere from 5% to 20% of total applications, where they are having to wait four, five, six-plus years in order to be able to get their citizenship. It's almost as if this particular minister has completely ignored the citizenship portion of his file.

Mr. Chair, yes, he put $40 million into this budget but it doesn't really say that much, when you take a look at it. When the Liberal government was last in office we saw that—

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Stop the clock.

There is a point of order from Mr. Dykstra.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I know my good friend, Mr. Lamoureux, usually has a lot to say before he gets to his question, but I do think it's important. There are a lot of places for him to categorize his views on the minister from a personal perspective. I don't think it's here at committee. I understand if he wants to speak specifically to the issue but getting personal and making accusations against the minister, I think that should be on his own time, not on committee time.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

On the same point of order, Mr. Chair, I'm sure that Mr. Dykstra is familiar with the rules. The Liberal Party gets five minutes in order to have a question and answer. If I choose to have a question at four minutes and fifty-five seconds into my five minutes, I'm entitled to do that. This is a time in which we would like to send a clear message to the Minister of Immigration—

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Okay, Mr. Lamoureux, it's your dime and you can talk for five minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

So we're going to continue the clock now?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Yes. Start the clock.

I have another point of order from Mr. Weston.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

It is on the same point of order.

I was going to let the minister respond, but in case he doesn't, it was said by Mr. Lamoureux that the minister “deleted” applicants, which is, I'm sure, the wrong choice of words.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Let's not get into a debate here.

Mr. Lamoureux has five minutes to either ask a question or make a statement. It's true, he has to be courteous to the minister and hopefully he'll keep that in mind. But at this particular point, he's free to talk for five minutes if he wishes. If he doesn't ask a question, that's his business too.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

It's patently wrong.