Evidence of meeting #4 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dollar.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Dodge  Governor, Bank of Canada
Paul Jenkins  Senior Deputy Governor, Bank of Canada

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Welcome, everyone.

Just before I turn to our witnesses, I want to welcome officially, on behalf of the industry, science, and technology committee, an official delegation from Yemen. They're interested in what the committee is doing, especially with respect to our witnesses here today.

I'll just name the official leader, the speaker of the body comparable to our Senate, His Excellency Dr. Abdul Aziz Abdul Ghani. Dr. Ghani, would you like to stand up and be recognized?

Let's all welcome him on behalf of the committee.

11:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for coming.

Having met the delegation, I understand six of the group have been bankers in the past, Mr. Dodge, so they're very interested in your presentation.

Mr. Dodge, on behalf of the committee, I welcome you and thank both you and Mr. Jenkins very much for taking the time from your busy schedules. I'm sorry about the delay in starting the meeting; the last committee went a bit over their time.

We are studying the state of manufacturing in Canada. Obviously one of the relevant factors is the depreciation of the Canadian dollar vis-à-vis the U.S. dollar, and its impact on the manufacturing sector. We have a full committee here today, and we are very interested in what you're going to say.

This is the process here today: we have about an hour with you, I believe, and for both you and Mr. Jenkins we'll have a 10-minute to 12-minute opening presentation, and then we'll go to questions to the members after that.

Welcome to the committee. Thank you very much for coming. You can start at any time.

11:05 a.m.

David Dodge Governor, Bank of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It's a tremendous pleasure for Paul and me to be here this morning and to meet with you. It really is an honour to be invited, and I hope we can be of some help to you in your examination of the challenges facing the Canadian manufacturing sector.

Members of the committee, as far as I am aware, it's the first time a governor or a senior deputy governor of the bank has actually appeared in front of this committee. Certainly it's the first time for a long time, so I thought it would be appropriate to start with a very brief description of the framework within which the bank conducts monetary policy. I'll then talk about the global forces that are posing challenges for our manufacturing sector and what they imply for the economy as a whole. Finally, Mr. Chairman, I thought it might be useful to share with you some of the evidence we've gathered from Canadian manufacturers about how they are adjusting to the challenges.

Let me start with the first part, then. The Bank of Canada Act calls on us to:

mitigate by its influence fluctuations in the general level of production, trade, prices and employment, so far as may be possible within the scope of monetary action, and generally to promote the economic and financial welfare of Canada.

That has remained our charge since we were formed in the mid-1930s.

Over time it has become clear that the best way for us to fulfil this mandate is to keep inflation low, stable, and predictable. Specifically, we aim to keep the annual rate of consumer price inflation at 2%, which is the midpoint of a 1% to 3% band.

To meet these objectives, we try to keep the economy operating at its full capacity. By this, I mean that we aim for balance between total demand and total supply in the economy. Simply speaking, if strong demand for Canadian goods and services were pushing the economy as a whole against the limits of its capacity, and if inflation were poised to rise above the target, the Bank of Canada would raise its key policy interest rate. This, in turn, would push up other interest rates and help to cool off demand, thus keeping supply and demand in balance and inflation on target. On the other hand, if the economy as a whole were operating below its production capacity, and inflation were poised to fall below the target, the bank would lower its key policy rate to help stimulate demand.

By maintaining low and stable inflation, monetary policy helps to keep the economy operating at full capacity and promotes greater stability in economic output. This point is crucial in helping the economy adjust to global economic forces. A key element of our monetary policy framework is the floating exchange rate.

Let me be clear: we do not have a target or preferred exchange rate for the Canadian dollar. But it is an important relative price in our economy. In terms of the bank's monetary policy, exchange rate movements give us information about economic developments that may be having a direct impact on demand in the Canadian economy. And the movements themselves have their own effect on demand, by changing relative prices for Canadian goods and services and by shifting demand between domestic and foreign products.

The challenge for the bank is to evaluate these movements, together with other data, and set a course for monetary policy that works to keep demand and supply in balance and inflation on target.

When the Canadian dollar rises or falls, we try to determine how much of that movement is due to changes in world demand for our goods and services, and how much is due to other unrelated factors.

It is important that we understand the causes of exchange rate movements, because the implications for the economy — and the appropriate monetary policy response — depend on the cause of the change. We set out a fairly detailed explanation of this in our January 2005 Monetary Policy Report Update, which is included in your package.

Mr. Chair, that's a very quick look at our framework.

We can come back to any of this in the discussion, but what I want to do is apply that framework to our current situation, because I'm sure the members of the committee are well aware of the global forces affecting not just Canadian manufacturers but our entire economy and indeed the entire world.

In the past few years, we've had an extraordinarily strong global economic growth. There's also been an unusually high amount of liquidity in the global economy, which central banks are now in the process of removing.

Meanwhile, we've seen a persistent and growing current account deficit in the United States, mirrored by large and growing account surpluses elsewhere, especially Asia. These imbalances reflect the financial flows associated with mismatches of savings and investment on a global scale.

We've also seen the emergence of China and India as economic powerhouses. The strong growth of these countries and other emerging markets has led the sharply higher prices for many of the products Canada produces. At the same time, the intense competition from their manufacturers has led to lower prices for many consumer durable and semi-durable goods.

Now all of this taken together has resulted in improvement in our terms of trade and in higher incomes for Canadians in general, but particularly for producers of commodities, metal products, energy products, building materials, and machinery, to name a few.

We've also seen a rapid rise in the external value of the Canadian dollar. This gain will largely, although not entirely, effect a stronger global demand for Canadian goods and services.

Against this backdrop, Canadian manufacturers have been getting more efficient. Indeed, we've seen a tremendous rebound in manufacturing productivity. Output has increased, even while the number of jobs has been reduced.

Now this has been very difficult for many workers in the manufacturing sector who have lost jobs as a result of these changes, and it's difficult for the sector's entrepreneurs and managers. We all recognize this, but we also have to recognize that in part this reflects the fact that many firms are taking advantage of the strong Canadian dollar to invest in machinery and equipment in order to improve productivity.

These productivity gains bode well for the future. Improved efficiency helps improve our international competitiveness and our ability to withstand shocks.

Indeed, we see businesses across the country working hard to adjust to an increasingly competitive environment. We've been tracking this adjustment through our regular communication with business groups, manufacturers, and exporters, as well as through the bank's business outlook survey. You'll find a copy of our most recent business outlook survey in your package.

Our surveys have highlighted three areas that are posing problems for manufacturers: labour shortages, appreciation of the Canadian dollar, and competition from Asia. Let me say a couple of words of introduction about each.

First, our surveys have shown that the key problem for some manufacturers—such as firms in other sectors, by the way—has been a shortage of skilled labour. Despite the difficulty in attracting skilled labourers, our most recent survey shows that hiring intentions remain strong across most parts of the manufacturing sector and across all regions. Many of the workers who will be hired to alleviate labour shortages in expanding sectors of the economy are those who are going to be released from sectors that are growing less rapidly.

Second, since 2003, when the Canadian dollar began to appreciate, we regularly asked businesses how they've been adjusting to that appreciation. Roughly half of the firms surveyed say they've been adversely affected by the rise in the Canadian dollar, and those firms are largely concentrated in the sectors exposed to international trade, including manufacturing.

Finally, many firms we surveyed also said they felt the effects of increased competition from Asia, in addition to significant increases in their input cost, particularly higher energy and metals costs.

In response to these three challenges, many firms have undertaken a profound restructuring of their businesses. Indeed, some 80% of manufacturers we surveyed reported changing their operations. Many are repositioning themselves to specialize in higher value-added production. Many have abandoned at least some of their more labour-intensive mass production in favour of small lots and customized products. Many are improving the quality of the products they make, and others have transformed labour-intensive production offshore but have kept and developed their highly skilled high value-added operations here in Canada.

Members of the committee, let me make one last and very important point. From our discussions and our analysis of the data, it is clear that manufacturing is not a monolithic sector. There is no single strategy that will work for every manufacturer, because every business is unique. Some manufacturers face sector-specific challenges; others face booming demands and have difficulties meeting the demands. But while each business is unique, most of them are working very hard to find ways to adapt to and thrive in these challenging times.

Mr. Chairman, I hope that's been useful to set the scene. We're now looking forward to your questions.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Dodge, for the presentation.

We'll go right into questions. The first round is six minutes. That includes questions and answers, so I ask members to be brief in their questions and try to allow the witness at least as much time for the answers to the questions.

We'll start with Mr. Fontana, for six minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Fontana Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Mr. Dodge and Mr. Jenkins.

We have already heard, and you, Mr. Dodge, have already pointed out, what the stresses and challenges are with regard to the manufacturing sector. Let me, then, touch on or at least ask you to address three particular issues that I think have been raised already by the manufacturing sector, especially the export sector, as they relate...I think you've already talked about them. One is the dollar, the second is interest rates, and third is obviously high energy costs and how those costs have impacted on their costs of operation.

The government has given the Bank of Canada a mandate not only to stabilize prices and control inflation, but also, as we know, so far it has done an admirable job of keeping it under 3%. But I'm not sure the same can be said with regard to the Canadian dollar, which obviously manufacturers and exporters have already indicated has seen a 30% rise in three years--10% per year. It's not so much the value of the dollar as it is the steep incline that has caused them some irreparable problems, including some incredible losses of jobs already, and in fact it may also cause some additional ones.

Let me ask you to address the dollar, which is their number one concern, second, interest rates, and third, those competitive factors or the tax environment that they feel is important. I'll ask you a question as an example. On the GST, as part of the last budget, was that the most useful way of increasing productivity and building a competitive economy? Your views on that would be much appreciated.

With regard to the high dollar and interest rates, how does a rapidly rising Canadian dollar factor into the Bank of Canada's interest rate decision-making process? Would a slower rise in the Canadian dollar, managed by the Bank of Canada, not avoid many of the layoffs and the plant closures in the manufacturing sector and therefore give us an opportunity to adjust to these increases? And what actions has the Bank of Canada taken to date to stem or slow the rise of the Canadian dollar?

Secondly, with regard to interest rates, there is no doubt--

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have put six questions and--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Fontana Liberal London North Centre, ON

So far it's only been a minute and a half, and I have all the confidence in the world that Mr. Dodge will be able to answer my questions in thirty seconds.

Let me start with those: dollar, interest rates, and taxes.

11:20 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

David Dodge

Let me start with interest rates, because that's what we directly influence.

As you are aware, we have interest rates across the whole spectrum of the yield curve at almost historic lows. Indeed, we haven't seen rates this low since the 1950s. In part, those low rates are facilitating adjustments in the economy. You have to go back to the mid-fifties, to 1956-57, to see rates as low as we have. We have those low rates because we focused--and Canadians are confident that we focused--to hold inflation down so that we don't have an inflation premium. We also have rates that are at historic lows relative to rates in the United States.

So our rates as such, even though we've been raising them recently to take some of the excess liquidity out of the system, are extraordinarily low.

Let me turn now to the dollar. Because we have what we call “negative spreads”, or rates below U.S. rates, what we can do in setting interest rates to influence the dollar...to the extent that we can do that, of course, we are having an influence to hold that down a little bit. As I said, there are historically wide spreads in the negative direction at the moment.

Our analysis would indicate that most of the appreciation since the beginning of 2003 is being driven by changes in the real economy, both globally and domestically. We've had very sharply rising prices for metals and for energy. As you know, with Canada being a significant exporter of metals and energy, we have seen a very significant improvement in our terms of trade. That's good news, because collectively we're richer, but part of the adjustment to that means that the exchange rate appreciates.

That is actually appropriate in the sense that it's doing some of the work to balance demand and supply in our economy, but it is also signalling changes in relative prices. Of course, it's the change in the relative prices that is making it difficult for the manufacturers. Heaped on top of that, of course, is the thing that every OECD economy is experiencing, and that is the hugely increased competition coming largely, but not exclusively, from Asia. So it's not an easy time for manufacturers in making that adjustment.

It's certainly true that it would be easier for all of us if the appreciation of energy prices and the appreciation of metals prices had been rather slower and the appreciation of the Canadian dollar had been rather slower as a consequence.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Fontana Liberal London North Centre, ON

Or owed new taxes.

11:25 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

David Dodge

I don't want to tread on the Minister of Finance's territory. The one thing I would point out, however, is that the structure of the GST, being a value-added tax, is actually a good structure as far as the manufacturing sector is concerned. It would actually be very helpful in the province of Ontario if the structure of the Ontario sales tax was the same as the structure of the federal one. It would be very helpful for the manufacturing sector because it would relieve the sector of a number of taxes on its inputs.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Fontana Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thanks very much, Mr. Fontana.

We'll go to Mr. Crête.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to tell you that the reports you produce are excellent. I like working with a document like this one.

You said that the dollar rose more quickly than expected. It's more the speed of this rise, rather than the rise itself, which causes problems.

Could you explain why the increase occurred?

11:25 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

David Dodge

From early 2003 till late 2005, roughly speaking, the key factor was the increase in the price of natural gas, oil and base metals.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

And gas?

11:25 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

David Dodge

That's a domestic price. Here, in Canada, we don't have the capacity to produce enough gas to meet the demand. Black gold is the real problem. Prices escalated very quickly because overall demand has been very strong since 2003.

Those are the major factors, but the demand in the United States in the housing and household products sectors was also extremely strong. Global pressure, therefore, pushed up demand for Canadian products. It is important that the dollar adjust accordingly. The problem is that there have been four price adjustments for metals in three years.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

You referred to 2003 through 2005. Was this acceleration sustained after 2005?

11:30 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

David Dodge

After 2005, and especially over the past four to six weeks, there has been quite an extraordinary level of volatility in global financial and commodities markets.

Paul.

11:30 a.m.

Paul Jenkins Senior Deputy Governor, Bank of Canada

I would simply like to add that the global economy, since 2003, has experienced a period of growth without precedent in the post-World War II era. In the past four years the growth rate of the global economy was above 4 per cent, and it is likely this level will be sustained both this year and the next. The global environment is extraordinary, as is global demand, which is reflected in the increase in commodities prices.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Isn't the fact that Canada's economy is two-tiered dangerous? For 2004-2005, in Quebec and Ontario, employment dropped by 10 and 11 per cent. And yet, these two provinces represent 75 p. 100 of Canada's manufacturing output. Isn't there currently a danger that Canada's economy might almost break in two and that we will end up with what I'd call the energy economy which benefits Western Canada more, and the manufacturing sector? You saw the forestry industry's demonstration; they were not crazy about your last hike. Isn't this dangerous? How are you dealing with it?

11:30 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

David Dodge

It has caused real problems. It is hard to adjust very quickly to fairly brutal changes in relative prices. It is extremely difficult, and it is extraordinarily challenging.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

So it is basically a two-tiered economy.

11:30 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

David Dodge

One needs to be careful. In the manufacturing sector, for example, there are some subsectors working at full capacity, which have trouble keeping up with demand. I am referring especially to the processing sectors: steel, all metals, machinery, etc. For producers of consumer goods, especially semi-durable goods, it is a lot harder.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

In your opinion, is monetary policy an important tool in dealing with this? Should the government use other instruments to meet the demands of the manufacturing sectors as far as increasing their competitiveness is concerned?