Evidence of meeting #31 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was strategy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Dicerni  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Iain Stewart  Director General, Portfolio and Coordination Branch, Department of Industry

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We'll call this meeting to order, the 31st meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology.

We are beginning today our study pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study of Canadian science and technology. It's very exciting. All members of the committee are looking forward to it, and I know that many Canadians across this country have written to me and to the clerk and are looking forward to this study.

We have with us today two officials from Industry Canada.

We have, first of all, someone who's been here many times. We have the deputy minister, Mr. Richard Dicerni. Welcome, Mr. Dicerni.

And we have the director general of the Portfolio and Coordination Branch. We have Mr. Iain Stewart, who's an expert on science and technology within the department.

Mr. Dicerni, are you starting with the opening statement? I'll give two minutes between the two of you, if that's okay.

11:10 a.m.

Richard Dicerni Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Okay. I'm glad to be here. I'm looking forward to answering your questions.

I am going to give the floor to Mr. Stewart, Director General in the Department of Industry. On the administrative front, his hand has guided the Science and Technology Strategy. He has prepared a document that has been distributed to you. I feel that he will be able to make a contribution to your deliberations today.

With that, I'll turn it over to Iain, who was, as I said, at the bureaucratic level, the guiding light in preparing the science and technology strategy.

Go ahead, Iain.

11:10 a.m.

Iain Stewart Director General, Portfolio and Coordination Branch, Department of Industry

Thank you, sir.

Good morning, and thank you for having us. I understand I have about five minutes. It's a 106-page document, but there are short versions and longer versions, if you're interested.

My remarks have been distributed, so you have them. What I'll do is go through them as quickly as I can and hit the high points.

The S and T strategy provides a multi-year framework to guide the government's approach to science and technology, with the objective of guiding science and technology to create a long-term sustainable economic advantage for Canadians. As a result, it's a guide for how the government invests in S and T as well.

So the remarks I've provided for you set out that multi-year S and T framework, its objectives, the advantages it seeks to create, and the guiding principles. Then my remarks identify a few of the initiatives undertaken, for instance, in Budget 2006 and Budget 2007, to populate these advantages or to achieve the objective of the strategy.

So just to go through this very quickly, as I mentioned, the overall objective of the S and T strategy is to build a national competitive advantage based on science and technology. The structure of the strategy and the objectives set out in the strategy flow from a diagnosis of what are the Canadian challenges, what is the situation at a very high level. In this page, I've captured them here. They're set out in much greater length, of course, in the S and T strategy.

First of all, the single most important theatre for research and innovation in Canada is the private sector. About 54% of all R and D in Canada happens in the private sector. Although that sounds like a lot, it's actually less than in competitor countries. The OECD average for research and development performed by the private sector is actually about 68%. So one of the key objectives of the S and T strategy is to create an environment in which Canadian companies compete on the basis of innovation and therefore invest in R and D in science and technology.

Secondly, one of the key things that we determined in our analysis leading up to the strategy was that Canada has a very strong university and public R and D base. Our universities and colleges across the country are very good. However, we don't always achieve the levels of excellence we should. Given how much the Government of Canada and governments across the country invest in R and D in the private sector, but also in the public sector and the university system, we would expect to be excellent in a number of areas to the advantage of Canada, and that is an important element of the strategy flowing from this diagnosis.

Lastly, in the same way, we have a very well-educated workforce. If you look at OECD, Canada has the most educated workforce of any country with respect to tertiary education. However, if you look at advanced degrees that are important to research and innovation, like Ph.D.s, our performance is much weaker.

So the three things this strategy sets out to do become the advantages, and you'll see those set out starting on page 3. All of the actions intended to build these three advantages that speak to those challenges are guided by four core priorities—and they're also set out on page 3.

The core priorities include promoting world-class excellence; everything the government is doing should be driving to encourage Canadian researchers to achieve excellence in their activities. Given that the Government of Canada needs to work with the universities and private sector to achieve these objectives, another major principle of the strategy is that things should be done in partnership, through collaborative approaches. Also, the government is focusing resources and energy and activity in the research community in priority areas, so that we achieve those levels of excellence in the areas that are important to Canada's long-term future. And the last priority is accountability, so that we're seeing results and the system we're supporting is responsive to the needs of Canadians—civil society, more generally—and not just academic research happening in an ivory tower.

The first of the three advantages is an entrepreneurial advantage. So if Canadian businesses tend to use innovation as a competitive strategy less than their competitors do in other countries, we need to create an environment in which they wish to compete on the basis of innovation.

For those companies that do want to compete on the basis of innovation, we need to ensure that the government is supporting collaborative R and D approaches, so that the firms that want to be innovators and to be excellent in their business area can access the very strong public resource we have through the universities and colleges and their faculties and students.

Also, where government is intervening to encourage an entrepreneurial advantage, where government is doing direct activities, we need to ensure that we're doing it effectively, that we're achieving results and our programs are working together.

One of the initiatives we highlight in the S and T strategy in that regard is a collaborative dialogue among the NRC, NSERC, and BDC—three entities that are all supporting different aspects of research and innovation—so that they're working together to support their clients.

So those initiatives are there to create an entrepreneurial advantage.

The second big advantage is this knowledge advantage, which is about focusing resources in areas that are important to Canada's long-term base, but doing so on a healthy discovery base of research. So the Government of Canada is supporting researchers across the country to pursue excellence in their field, and we are also at the same time identifying some areas where Canada could be truly excellent.

The S and T strategy sets out four priority areas in that regard. The environment is number one. Natural resources and energy is the second area. The third area is health and related sciences. The fourth area is ICTs, where we've had a strong research community for many years. So there is that idea of building a critical mass.

A third advantage is around this people advantage, and that's encouraging young Canadians to want to be interested in being part of the research community. Secondly, it's ensuring that they have adequate support in order to participate in graduate research through scholarships. Lastly, we're bridging those young people who are interested in joining the research community over into the private sector or into areas where they can apply their expertise.

The last general section of the S and T strategy is around some of the important things that are not necessarily directly linked to any one of these three advantages, but nonetheless are crucial to having a well-performing government support for the innovation system.

One of those areas that's talked about in particular is the importance of ensuring effective, high-level, comprehensive science advice. So the S and T strategy set out the objective of consolidating various bodies that were each handling individual slices of science advice into one body that would speak to basic research through to commercialization...across all discipline lines involving researchers and research experts from academia, the private sector, government, and just the research community--Canada research chairs, for instance, end up being on this body--and that, of course, is the Science, Technology and Innovation Council that was created as a result of the strategy by Minister Prentice.

In each of these areas there are examples of budget initiatives that were taken to make these things happen. My remarks include them. Under each of the three advantages there are examples, so I will just pick a couple. If you're going to create an environment that encourages people to invest and compete on the basis of innovation, you have to ensure we have a competitive market. The government created a competition panel to look at how competitive the Canadian market is. What could be done to improve competitive intensity, which we know from economics results in innovation?

The SR and ED tax credit is the single-biggest program the government runs. Last year it was about $4 billion in deferred income for the treasury. Is that program achieving the impacts it could? The Department of Finance did a review of that, and through the budget, Minister Flaherty announced changes to improve its impact, particularly for small companies, which are the innovators quite often that grow. So additional changes were focused on that client community.

If you want companies to invest in innovation, they can perform it themselves, such as being supported by the SR and ED tax credit, or they can also buy the latest technologies and equipment from abroad. The changes to the capital cost allowance that were made in particular were important in that regard.

Other things were done to improve venture capital. The last budget created a $75 million contribution towards the establishment of a larger fund by the Business Development Bank. Those are all done to improve the competitive environment that would encourage this entrepreneurial advantage.

With respect to the knowledge advantage, significant investments were made in Budget 2007 and Budget 2008 in support of the knowledge advantage. There was $510 million for the CFI, new money for the granting councils, etc. That's in support of those objectives.

Lastly, on the people advantage, it has encouraged young people to be involved in this area through the provision of new funding for scholarships. So the Canada graduate scholarships program has gotten larger. As well, new flagship programs, as announced in the last budget, like the Vanier scholarship program, will focus on the best and the brightest in the world. Also, there is a new Canada excellence research chairs program to concentrate resources for world-leading researchers in Canada to achieve international excellence in the results of their work.

I'll stop there, sir.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Stewart and Mr. Dicerni.

We'll start with questions from members. The first round will be six minutes, and we'll start with Mr. McTeague, please.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Chair, thank you.

Mr. Dicerni, Mr. Stewart, thank you for that broad-brush overview. This committee is of course interested in tackling an issue that has not been treated, and we would like obviously to deal with the science and technology side of our mandate here as a committee.

I have a few questions dealing with the perception and perhaps the conflicts that often arise among provincial strategies on science and technology. Do you find your department is at odds with the provinces or that we work sometimes at cross-purposes with their strategies? Or is there a better form of coordination to ensure that at the end of the day, at the end of the line, new ideas are not just made and encouraged and developed in Canada, but they're also commercialized around the world?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Richard Dicerni

We are trying to work with the provinces in a number of ways. In this particular area of science and technology, shall we say, as compared to other areas of the department, one size definitely does not fit all. Different provinces have different infrastructure in place, if you look at Alberta, Quebec, Ontario, or B.C.

The second point I would make is that when you use the term “coordination”, coordination does not necessarily come easily in this particular sector, partly because both governments deal with third-party instruments. That would be the NRC and our granting councils. Provincial governments have similar institutions, which are at arm's length from actual decision-making.

The third point I would make is that a lot of the research is indeed discovery research. If you look at some of the foundation research that takes place in universities and so forth, it is bottom up; it is by researchers. So in some respects, it runs counter to the concept of explicit federal-provincial consultations.

I will ask my colleague if he has anything to add. We have ongoing discussions with a number of provinces on a bilateral basis. Iain was recently meeting with his Ontario colleagues in regard to certain areas, shall we say, in the auto sector, where there is an interest on the part of government--it was flagged in the budget--to pursue further R and D collaboration.

So within the parameters I've outlined, we do seek to work with provincial governments.

With respect to that one last thing, in the Atlantic provinces we try to work through ACOA, since they have an Atlantic Innovation Fund.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Stewart, I don't know if you want to add anything, but I have a couple of questions in that vain. Go ahead if you wish.

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Portfolio and Coordination Branch, Department of Industry

Iain Stewart

The only thing I would add to that is that if you read the provincial strategies on science, technology, and innovation and how they end up labelling them, there's actually a broad consensus among them about the kinds of challenges and the kinds of solutions. So the community is working within a very shared sense of the approach.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

On the subject of coordination, not just with the provinces but interdepartmentally, if I'm talking about new technologies, and it happens to be an environmental technology, and I want this commercialized, is Industry Canada taking the lead? Is Environment taking the lead? Is Natural Resources taking the lead? It seems that there may be some confusion as to who actually leads, disregarding the fact that science and technology falls under us. Quite often, if I'm applying for a particular program, I may have some confusion in dealing with one department versus the other. Is there a magic formula? Is there one department that speaks for all?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Richard Dicerni

No, is the short answer, because of the number of institutions. For example, the NRC has a very good program, the IRAP program, which seeks to bridge research and the marketplace. The Business Development Bank also has some involvement through its venture capital operations. NSERC also has a partnership fund. As Iain was saying, we've asked those three entities to pool their resources, both on-site and at a strategic level, to pursue more outcomes related to commercialization.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Having spent a bit of time in Foreign Affairs, it struck me that many people who have made inroads very successfully will go to a country that may have some difficulty, as an example, with pollution. We find that EDC might be willing to help develop strategically or to finance. Are we in fact working with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade to export our products so that products can be guaranteed to be sold around the world, thereby making point and purpose of our commercialization efforts here?

As well, I haven't heard any comment here with respect to the role of basic research, pure research, the kind of stuff that doesn't have outcomes but is nevertheless important. I think with the help of the chair we'll be able to see that in the next couple of weeks.

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Richard Dicerni

I referred to fundamental research that does not lend itself to coordination. One puts out a certain amount of funding that on a peer-reviewed basis seeks to recognize and support those who are the best with regard to an excellence-based outcome. So a large chunk of the funding the granting councils provide is for what I would call discovery research or pure research.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I think, Mr. Dicerni, you would want to clarify your answer and say that Industry, of course, is the architectonic department of all departments.

I'm just kidding.

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Richard Dicerni

No, sir, I would like for the record to note that we at the Department of Industry drink regularly from the fountain of humility, and it would be beyond our pay grade to assume this mandate.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay. Thank you.

Madame Brunelle, s'il vous plaît.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Good morning, gentlemen. It is a pleasure to meet you. I would like to talk a little about funding for research and development.

Mr. Stewart, you told us that, since 1997, this area has been well funded, even spectacularly, I gather. On the other hand, I was reading that the vibrancy of research and development is often calculated as a ratio of the GDP. In those terms, Canada's ratio of research and development to GDP is below the average among OECD countries. It has been 2% for the last five years.

Yet we see that, in a comparison of tax credit rates in 36 countries, Canada's is third highest for research and development. So that is a strong point.

Are the government's efforts enough? If so, are they beginning to bear fruit? The figures seem quite spectacular, but we know that research and development are really very important, the heart of the matter.

We know that the European Union spends a great deal on research and development, even with major international projects. The countries of Europe are at the same level as the United States. Is it your impression that the government's efforts are enough?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Richard Dicerni

The average you cited, as a percentage of the gross domestic product, is the sum of both governmental and private sector efforts. That is why we are in the middle of the pack.

But if you consider government investments in research and development, you see that Canada is performing at Olympic level, we are in the three or four top countries. The country's performance comes down because private sector investment is modest compared to what goes on elsewhere.

So we asked an independent group, the Council of Canadian Academies, to look into why this is the case, to study the matter in depth and, once and for all, to find out why the private sector in Canada invests comparatively much less than other countries.

You also asked if the investments provide us with anything: is investment worth the trouble? First, investments need time to pay off; we cannot expect immediate results from attracting great minds to university chairs, from awarding scholarships and so on. It takes time before it all starts to work.

Yet we no longer talk about a brain drain, about bright people leaving the country, because we now have interesting challenges for them. We are going to continue to see benefits in the years to come, but it is a constant challenge, a daily challenge.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Do you have an idea of what has to be done? Mr. Stewart, you told us that only 50% of research is funded by the private sector and confirmed that the percentage is much higher elsewhere.

Do we have a way of getting the private sector interested? Is it just a fact of life in the marketplace that, if we really invest in high tech—because if we are to be competitive these days and really do business, it has to be in the knowledge industry—the returns do not come naturally?

As for the best researchers, I had a brief discussion with the people at Genome Canada, among others, and I was amazed to find out how much you have to pay these top researchers, up to a million dollars a year and more. If we do not have people like this, all our research suffers because it is they who put us in the spotlight and allow us to position ourselves better.

I wonder whether Canada has enough of what it takes or whether we should form some kind of bigger association with the United States. Is it conceivable to do a bit like the European Union is doing, where several countries get together to try to get international level researchers? I wonder whether we are in the race.

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Richard Dicerni

I would say yes, and I would point out the projects in the last budget.

The Chairs for Research Excellence for a total of $10 million, announced in the budget, is real money. It is also very competitive.

As well, the Vanier Scholarships, valued at $50,000, will also allow us to attract first-rate post-doctoral students. In candidate quality, these scholarships will rival the Fulbright and Rhodes scholarships and so on. The objective is to attract both professors and students. When I say students, I mean people who have finished their PhDs.

You mentioned collaboration with the United States. This is already being done on a number of fronts. Specifically, there is an excellent project that brings together researchers from Canada and California.

As to private sector participation, you said earlier that, by population, our tax credit rate was ranked third in significance. In that respect, the government is doing all that it has to do with the tools it has.

I draw your attention to a speech by Red Wilson a few weeks ago. It dealt with the importance of making it easier for the university world and the business world to come together. A number of other experts have dealt with the same subject. Mr. Bachand also spoke about it in Quebec. Mr. Wilson heads the group studying the laws that govern competition. In his speech, he highlighted the importance, in a country like Canada, of encouraging as much as possible a better dialogue between the private sector and the universities. We are going to work on it.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Right. Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Do I have any time left?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

No.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Pity. My best question was coming up.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Merci, madame Brunelle.

We'll go now to Mr. Carrie, please.