Evidence of meeting #63 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was witnesses.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sandy Walker  Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual
Mike MacPherson  Legislative Clerk, House of Commons
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jean Michel Roy

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the 63rd meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology.

We have some motions we're going to deal with, but it seems there's agreement to go ahead with Ms. Sandy Walker, who is the only member of our first panel. As was casually discussed before the meeting, our witness from the C.D. Howe Institute will not be joining us today.

Sandy Walker is a partner of Fraser Milner Casgrain. Ms. Walker, we will begin with your opening remarks for five minutes and then we'll have a rotation of questions.

Please begin at your pleasure.

3:30 p.m.

Sandy Walker Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable members.

My name is Sandy Walker. I am a partner in the competition foreign investment group at Fraser Milner Casgrain in Toronto. I am the past chair of the foreign investment review committee of the Canadian Bar Association and I have been dispensing foreign investment advice for the last 15 years.

I am here today at the invitation of the committee and I am speaking in my personal capacity. In my limited time, I would like to focus primarily on the need for predictability and transparency in the Investment Canada Act, which I'm going to call the ICA. Time permitting, I will also touch on the issue of compliance with undertakings.

When foreign investors are considering an investment in Canada, they need to understand the rules. If the rules are clear, investors can plan their investments accordingly. As you have no doubt heard over the course of these hearings, there are a number of aspects of the ICA that generate uncertainty for investors. For example, the net benefit to Canada criteria set out in section 20 are very broad and can be interpreted flexibly. While this latitude permits the minister to review investments on a case-by-case basis, too much latitude can introduce uncertainty, detract from predictability, increase the risk to the investor and the Canadian business, and may well discourage investment that is beneficial to Canada.

Uncertainty in the application of the ICA can be reduced in a number of ways.

First, issue ministerial decisions on transactions. The 2009 amendments to the ICA require the minister to issue reasons when the minister turns down an investment. However, reasons are not required if the minister approves an investment or if the investor withdraws its application, even if the investor withdrew the application because the minister initially rejected the investment, as appears to have occurred with respect to the Potash Corporation case. The issuance of reasons in all cases would help establish a body of decision-making that would help foreign investors understand the rules for investing in Canada and would also give the public an appreciation of why the investment is good for Canada. Such decisions would, of course, need to be sanitized of competitively sensitive information.

Second, to reduce uncertainty we should be developing and publishing a body of opinions on the interpretation of the Investment Canada Act. Some transactions raise difficult interpretation issues. For example, should an investment of a Canadian in a Canadian-listed company with no Canadian assets that generate revenue—basically the company just has a mine in Chile or Kazakhstan—be subject to the Investment Canada Act?

The minister is currently able to provide opinions under section 37 of the act, but does so infrequently. Opinions are important because they ensure careful consideration and consistency in the interpretation of the act. Making these opinions available in summary form would assist in developing greater certainty and transparency, but in order for the opinion process to be used more regularly, opinions would need to be provided on an expedited basis. Forty-five days, which is the maximum time period allowed under the act, is too long. Transactions often proceed on a much faster track.

Third, issue more guidelines and interpretation notes. Given the wide discretion the minister has under the Investment Canada Act, more guidance on how Industry Canada views the section 20 factors would be useful. The net benefit test will never be black and white, because many of the section 20 factors are not quantifiable, but guidelines could clarify government policy in certain cases. For example, the PotashCorp decision raises the question of whether the government considers certain industries to be so critical —so key or strategic —to Canada's economy that foreign investments in them will not be considered or will merit intense scrutiny. Conversely, if this is not the case, investors should know.

Guidance would also be useful in respect of national security. There is no definition of national security, which I completely understand, but it would be helpful to see some illustrative examples of the types of transactions that would be considered injurious to Canada's national security.

I'll touch briefly on compliance with undertakings. I think there's a lot of public skepticism about foreign investors living up to their undertakings and I believe in some cases this may relate to a lack of understanding about the nature of undertakings. They are commitments made to the Canadian government based on projected circumstances, and if those circumstances diverge widely from reality through no fault of the investor, Industry Canada recognizes this by either not holding the investor accountable or accepting a new undertaking.

In other words, there's a kind of force majeure or escape clause for foreign investors, as in most commercial contracts. This is justifiable, because the Canadian business could become uneconomic if the investor is forced during a recession to live up to commitments made in good faith during a boom period.

If there is disagreement between the government and the investor as to the validity of the reason for the non-compliance, it may make sense to bring in a third-party arbiter to determine if it is appropriate to release the investor from its obligations. Litigation is currently the only means of resolving disputes between the investor and the government, and that is a long-drawn-out and costly process.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you, Madam Walker.

Now we'll move on to questions. Our first round is seven minutes, so we'll go over to Madam Coady for seven minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Ms. Walker, for lending your expertise to us this afternoon and for all the great work you've done on this issue. We certainly appreciate it.

There are a number of questions and I have a lot to get through, so forgive me: I'm not skipping over predictability and transparency, but I want to back up a tiny little bit.

3:35 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I think we've got a good picture, and you've given us some really good explanations and requirements.

I want to go back to the Budget Implementation Act of 2009, if I may, and some of the Wilson report's recommendations that were included in the 2009 report, mostly around what I'm going to call the threshold. You understand the review threshold for investments.

3:40 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

They were supposed to change from $312 million in book value to $1 billion in enterprise value, and we haven't been able to move that forward. I think you wrote last year, in September 2010, in a report called “Recent Developments in Foreign Investment Review in Canada: Much Fanfare, Much Furor…Much Ado about Nothing?”--

3:40 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

Sandy Walker

That was before PotashCorp.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Okay, perfect. On the reasons for the government delays in regulations around the higher enterprise value, could you elaborate on why the government's delay in implementing the new threshold isn't clear? Do you know what's happening at that end? How much more quickly can we move forward?

3:40 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

Sandy Walker

The amendments were brought in March 2009. There were draft regulations issued in the first week of July 2009. I was chair of the foreign investment review committee at the time, and the CBA provided comments by the deadline, which I think was August 31, 2009. I understand it went back to the government, and nothing has really happened since. I can't provide you with an explanation as to why.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Is this a source of uncertainty for investors and the legal community? How much of a concern is this? They know the threshold is moving. Is it again around the whole issue of predictability?

3:40 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

Sandy Walker

When our clients come to us, we tell them it's the book value of assets. It's $312 million. At some point in the future it may go up, but we don't know when.

My own feeling is that we don't need to worry that much about it because we will probably be given another draft to look at prior to finalization of the regulations, so I think we'll have enough advance notice, but it does seem unusual to me that it has taken this long. There may be reasons.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Are there any recommendations you'd like to make to this committee on defining “enterprise value”? There seem to be a lot of issues around the definition of “enterprise value”.

3:40 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Industry Canada told us that there's a delay due to the consultations on how to define it. When Industry Canada came to the committee, that was their reason for the delay.

3:40 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

Sandy Walker

Well, I can't explain the length of the delay. I do understand the issues. There are issues relating to defining “enterprise value” that were pointed out in our CBA submission in August. I think the government thought there was some merit to those concerns. “Enterprise value” could be defined as the purchase price--the Wilson report defined it in relation to purchase price--and it could also be defined in relation to market capitalization.

Those options are there. The choice has to be made, and I guess it just hasn't been done yet.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

You spoke about the Wilson report. The Wilson report made very clear recommendations to enhance transparency and predictability, which is how you started your discourse this afternoon. As an example, one recommendation was to increase the use of guidelines and other advisory materials, but those recommendations haven't been implemented at this point, nor were they raised under the context of the Budget Implementation Act when other issues were raised around this. Would you encourage--

3:40 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

Sandy Walker

I should say Heritage Canada has put out a draft on their book publishing policy. That is going on, but I'm not aware of any Industry Canada initiatives.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Would you encourage the government to implement specific recommendations of the Wilson report? You made some very good recommendations here as well this afternoon. Are there others we should do that you're aware of?

3:40 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

Sandy Walker

I don't believe the Wilson report made a distinction between decisions to approve transactions and decisions to disallow transactions. The 2009 amendments only require reasons with respect to the disallowance of a transaction. We don't actually have reasons for the PotashCorp decision, because the applicant withdrew its application, so we're left without any guidance on that.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Speaking about guidance, in the 2009 Budget Implementation Act, there was this requirement for a new annual report that Industry Canada must provide to the minister on the administration of the ICA. Now, we have yet to see such a report. That aside, you're a practitioner in the foreign investment field. What sort of information details should be contained in the annual report? What would you like to see?

3:40 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

Sandy Walker

What would I like to see?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Yes.

3:40 p.m.

Partner, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, As an Individual

Sandy Walker

Well, I'd like to see what I've pointed out here. I'd like to see explanations for why transactions were approved or disapproved, particularly why—