Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 3rd, 2012

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Maung Htoo, now I can ask you that question that I wanted to ask earlier. You've spent a substantial period of time on sanctions. It appeared that you were concerned about the swiftness with which we repealed the sanctions. Of course, different countries did different things. The U.S. retained their sanctions. The EU lifted theirs.

But on media reports that Aung San Suu Kyi welcomed the lifting of the sanctions, can you just give us an idea as to why you have more concerns than Suu Kyi does? Or did the media get her statements wrong?

[Tin Maung Htoo]

Well, let me put it this way. She is under pressure, to tell you the truth. She's under pressure from domestic forces and also international interests. She said yes, she cautiously welcomed the lifting of or suspension of economic sanctions when she had a press conference with the British Prime Minister, David Cameron.

But my sense is that she has no choice; she has to do it. On one hand, she's facing all these people inside the country—the military, the so-called reformists, the reform-minded generals—and on the other hand, she has democratic forces who are moving forward, but using the principle that stands....

I don't want to say she openly welcomed the suspension of economic sanctions, but to some extent, I understand she said it to move the process forward. Things are in a very difficult situation for her too.

Some people say, “Suu Kyi said it's okay.” Personally, I don't take it in that way. I understand. Even though I didn't talk to her directly, I closely monitor every single word she says almost every day.

I know in this situation we have to be a little bit cautious. We should not be too happy: “Oh, she said it was okay.” No.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Maung Htoo, as I said earlier, reading your biography, if anybody knows about pressure, it's you. Thank you very much for your answers. I appreciate it.

My colleague has some questions.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like you to elaborate, if you could, about the control the military leader still exercises over the government and over the military. Could you elaborate as to what control that is? Is there no constraint on this parliament? Is the government completely subject to that authority?

[Tin Maung Htoo]

Yes, in many cases. For example, President Thein Sein ordered the army to stop attacking Kachin state. The commander-in-chief refused to do that. That is one example.

When it comes to some legislative issues, like, for example, an amendment or other issues, 25% of the seats in parliament are controlled by the military, directly by the commander-in-chief. Anything you want to change or any amendment you want to make must have agreement from the army. Even within the executive branch, the three key cabinet portfolios that I outlined in my presentation—the home ministry, defence, and border affairs—are very, very powerful in Burma. They are controlled or directly appointed by the commander-in-chief.

So there are many strings attached to all these processes. However, without the support from the army and the consent from the army or the commander-in-chief, you cannot do anything. That is the situation in Burma.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Do you think there's any possibility that in your call for justice—item 4 of your policy recommendations—individuals who are committing the violence and the crimes, the soldiers, will be held accountable? Has there been any opening or any signalling of this?

[Tin Maung Htoo]

I haven't seen such signalling from the army or even the executive branch. That is another step for the democratic forces, including Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, to move forward, to push to have that kind of justice. Seeking justice, in my interpretation, is not just to seek retribution or to punish those who made all these atrocities, but just for future reference, because many things happened in Burma for many years and many decades. And if we cannot say that this is wrong, this is something we should not do, then the military or whoever has the power will continue to do this. That's why we are seeking justice. But how the military will respond to that we still will have to wait and see.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You are basically out of time, Mr. Hiebert.

Mr. Jacob, go ahead.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Maung Htoo.

You talked a bit about mines. I have a more general question for your. What kind of advice would you give a company that wants to invest in Burma? In other words, what kind of concrete suggestions would you give a company that want to invest in Burma, but that also wants to make sure it is not an accessory to human rights violations? What advice would you give those companies?

[Tin Maung Htoo]

The first thing is that it would be better for us to stay away from mining operations until and unless there are regulations put in place that are in accordance with the social responsibility and environmental standards. Unfortunately, there are many companies already lining up to explore for gas or oil or mining operations in Burma. That's the unfortunate part.

If a company in the mining sector or in industry wants to go ahead and invest in Burma, what I would recommend to the government is that the government not make loans from, for example, Export Development Canada. And do not let public pension plans, such as the Canada Pension Plan, be involved in the investment. That is probably in accordance with our moral stand, and we can stay away from these new complexities in Burma.

That is my suggestion.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

My second question is about human rights. What measures could Canadian parliamentarians adopt to help Burmese civil society organizations improve the human rights situation in their country?

[Tin Maung Htoo]

Another piece of advice from me is to have a mission of members of Parliament visit Burma to see the situation on the ground. It would be better for you to see what is going on, and you would have a chance to directly interact with members of Parliament in Burma.

In Canada, Parliament can also recommend that the government support some kind of tangible support, concrete support, for the civil society organizations in Burma. The Burmese civil society organizations are still in a difficult situation. They will definitely need some support from Canada and other countries to build civil society organizations in media, community development, awareness, human rights, training, etc. That would be very useful for the people in Burma.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

More specifically, what measures could Canada take to promote freedom of religion in Burma?

[Tin Maung Htoo]

I would suggest that freedom of religion should be known in democratic systems everywhere, and also in Burma. Some different religious groups in Burma are facing many difficulties in terms of practising their belief system. I am also aware that DFAIT set up a department for that cause, the religious freedom department, and the department can monitor the freedom of religion situation in Burma.

But one thing I just want to suggest to you is that Burma has many religious groups. Of course, Buddhist is the dominant group, but at the same time, there are Christians, Muslims, and Hindus. There are even still Jews there. But of course when it comes to these issues, we still have to look at how the government is providing freedom of religion for different groups inside the country.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

That's great.

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You have one minute left.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

The United Nations published a special report on the human rights situation in March 2012. The report indicated that the international community would have to consider establishing an international commission of enquiry to look into the gross and systemic violations of human rights that could be perceived as crimes against humanity or war crimes.

What do you think about the special rapporteur's statement? Do you share their opinion? What are the benefits or the disadvantages of that approach?

[Tin Maung Htoo]

We support the setting up of a UN commission of inquiry into war crimes or crimes against humanity taking place in Burma. The UN rapporteur made the recommendation, and more than a thousand countries, including Canada, supported that commission of inquiry.

Under these circumstances, it is a bit difficult for many people, many countries, to move ahead, because the political situation over there is still fragile, and bringing up some difficult issues could jeopardize the positive political liberalization of political reforms. But of course we should definitely keep this work, and Canadians should continue their support for the commission of inquiry. That is also related to the seeking of justice, because that is a way to move forward.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Maung Htoo.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Van Kesteren, go ahead, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Mr. Htoo, I'm curious. When my colleague asked last about encouragement of foreign investment, I think your suggestion was to refrain from that until there are laws in place. I just want to make sure I heard that right. I don't think anybody would disagree that there should be environmental laws and so on in place. Specifically, then, because we are a Canadian parliamentary group, we would pressure our companies to refrain from that. Doesn't that play into the hands of those who would have no regard for environmental laws—I'm thinking perhaps of the Chinese—when you block countries?

Most of these companies have signed an agreement. It's a UN declaration, and the name escapes me right now, but there is a formula that is expected for conduct by mining institutions. Wouldn't it be more advantageous for you to invite those groups in than to encourage them, and to possibly apply pressure from our side to make sure they adhere to those laws? That's my first question: I want to get clarification from you that you're actually suggesting that we refrain from investment.

Secondly, wouldn't the best thing be for your country to build a strong middle class, and once you have a strong middle class that has something to lose when it comes to economic pressures, wouldn't that be more advantageous for you?

I'm just a little bit confused. I think I'm hearing mixed messages here. I think I'm hearing you suggest that we ought not be the first ones to get right in there and invest.

[Tin Maung Htoo]

Just let me touch on the second one. You're right: in theory, investment in any country is good for at least bringing up the middle class.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

There's not much of a chance that a neighbour would fight with a neighbour if they're doing trade and it's good trade; I mean the opposite is the reality. I think that's what happened. You have a military regime that is able to exercise this...I wouldn't call it a reign of terror, but it's close, which I think has been the case in much of that region.

But isn't it because of poverty? Isn't it because of lack of investment and commerce that these regimes have the ability to do those things?

[Tin Maung Htoo]

Yes. I also agree with your first point. If we don't do all these things that are good, other neighbouring countries, those that are not actually abiding by environmental studies, for example, China, or India, or other countries.... That is also true. I agree with you to some extent.

What we've got to look at is that we don't have a good track record in a range of communities, especially in that area. Even in Canada there are many mining communities. They have lots of problems in many countries, for instance, South America, or even Africa or in other places.

I'm not saying that I don't agree with you, but we have to work more on that. We have to ask them to be more beneficial for the people and try to stay away from all the environmental degradation. There has to be some kind of code of conduct in place.

But, yes, when it comes to Burma, it's still a long way off. It is wise to refrain a bit until we clearly see a better situation in Burma. Then we can go and do something that will be useful for the people.

Another MP also mentioned this investment-related issue. If we invest in Burma, I repeat again, stay away from mining areas or strategic areas until we clearly see a code of conduct over there.

At the same time, there are other opportunities, of course. Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, the leader of the new democracy movement, said that if there is investment, the investment should be in different areas that are beneficial for the people, for example, in the agriculture area, because 70% or 75% of Burma's population still rely on the agriculture industry and most of them are farmers. That could create more jobs.

When you do business in the mining sector or energy sector, I don't have any evidence that you've created jobs for the local people.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

If I could interject, I can see why you're at one with my colleague across the way. With respect, they have a very poor understanding of how the economy works. Quite frankly, your investment will come where there is a return, and we know extraction is where your greatest return is going to be.

My suggestion to you is to welcome that, embrace that, especially when it comes from western countries that have proven they have a strong what we call social conscience—the new buzzword that's entered into our dialogue here.

It is something where we can continue to exert pressure, from the government and from citizens as well, but that is where your investment is going to come. I'm not here to lecture you, but I would repeat that if you don't have the western companies—and we have some excellent companies in this country, Canadian companies—somebody will fill that void rapidly. Quite frankly, the regime in power knows that's where they will be able to lift the country out of poverty.

You're right. My suggestion would be that it will be countries like China and India and those countries that don't have a good history.

I just wanted to leave that thought with you.