Evidence of meeting #32 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was eritrea.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lloyd Lipsett  As an Individual
Todd Romaine  Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Fellow members, as chair of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, I now call the meeting to order.

Today, June 5, 2014, marks the committee's 32nd meeting, which is being televised.

We are continuing our study on the human rights situation in Eritrea.

We have two witnesses today. The first is Lloyd Lipsett, who is here as an individual but is appearing as an expert and as the author of the “Human Rights Impact Assessment of the Bisha Mine in Eritrea” report. Also with us is Todd Romaine, who is the vice-president for corporate social responsibility with Nevsun.

We did consult with members of the committee and it seemed okay to have the two of them appear side by side, but I assume if it's the case, Mr. Lipsett, that you will be the lead commenter.

1 p.m.

Lloyd Lipsett As an Individual

That's correct.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Perfect, why don't we begin then.

What we'll do is you'll do your opening statement, and then members will ask questions. The amount of time allocated for each question and answer round will be dictated by how much time remains before we wrap up. I'll figure out how much to allocate once you've completed your work.

1 p.m.

As an Individual

Lloyd Lipsett

If I could just clarify something, I had shortened my remarks to give Mr. Romaine a very brief moment at the end of my allotted 10 minutes. Is that okay?

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

That's fine. Yes, you can do that.

Of course, I'm hoping that both of you will be willing to answer questions.

1 p.m.

As an Individual

Lloyd Lipsett

Absolutely.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

I don't know who they'll go to; it's up to the members to decide.

1 p.m.

As an Individual

Lloyd Lipsett

It's most appropriate that Mr. Romaine speak to the follow-up rather than me.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

That's not a problem.

Why don't you begin then, please.

1 p.m.

As an Individual

Lloyd Lipsett

Good afternoon. I'd like to thank the chair and the members of the subcommittee for their invitation to present my recent work in Eritrea to conduct a human rights impact assessment of the Bisha mine.

As I know the subcommittee has deliberated about the human rights situation in Eritrea, I look forward to the question period to dialogue with you about the findings and recommendations of the report, which Nevsun has published and shared with the subcommittee.

In terms of my presentation, I would like to briefly cover the following topics: what human rights impact assessments are, my background in conducting such studies, the approach and methodology used for the Bisha assessment, and a few personal observations related to this study.

Given the limited time for the presentation, I propose to leave the detailed findings of my report for the question period, and I think it's most appropriate to let Mr. Romaine address Nevsun's plans to follow up on the recommendations included in the report.

What are human rights impact assessments? These HRIAs are the younger sibling of environment and social impact assessments. They are new tools that measure the potential and actual impacts of business operations on human rights. In particular, they explicitly reference human rights standards and principles and put an emphasis on the risks to affected stakeholders, such as workers and community members, rather than on the risks to a company.

In the past decade a number of HRIA methodologies have been developed by international organizations, and there are a growing number of examples of HRIAs in the public and private sectors. It is difficult to guess exactly how many HRIAs have been conducted since many are conducted confidentially on behalf of companies. This confidentiality is sometimes criticized as running counter to rights-based principles of transparency and accountability. In this regard, Nevsun's approach to publishing the assessments and engaging with various stakeholders about its findings and recommendations is commendable, and I hope it represents a good precedent for responsible business conduct by the Canadian extractive industry.

While there is a growing interest in HRIAs, I acknowledge that they are sometimes controversial and challenging. Nonetheless, the adoption of UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights has provided a strong impetus for impact assessments as part of a broader process for human rights due diligence required for companies to demonstrate their respect for human rights.

In terms of my background in conducting these studies, I've had the opportunity to work on human rights impact assessments over the past decade from the very early days of this field. Initially I participated in the development of the methodology for community-based human rights impact assessments at Rights and Democracy and oversaw five initial case studies in an in-house counsel role. Since then I have worked on HRIAs of mining, oil and gas projects, in Peru, Guatemala, Bolivia, the Philippines, the Democratic Republic of Congo, the United States, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Northwest Territories, and Nunavut. I've also worked with the United Nations with a team of experts to prepare a publication about human rights impact assessments of trade agreements in the Pacific region. I am currently working for the World Bank on a project to gather case studies and lessons learned about impact assessments and human rights due diligence for public and private sector projects.

I've collaborated on human rights impact assessments with companies, investors, governments, multilateral organizations, NGOs, and indigenous peoples, and I've seen the opportunities and challenges of using these tools for capacity building, monitoring, evaluation, and building dialogue about human rights from different sides of the complex dynamics that surround large-scale extractive projects.

In terms of the approach and methodology for the Bisha assessment, the approach taken was to do a comprehensive assessment of potential human rights impacts. In other words, the full spectrum of human rights was screened and reviewed rather than concentrating on a limited number of human rights issues that had been raised in past allegations. Furthermore, in the research and information-gathering stages, I adopted a capacity-building approach to explain the relevance of human rights standards to affected stakeholders in Eritrea while I was engaging with them. In other words, I didn't approach my work exclusively as an auditor but felt that it was also important to help build a foundation for dialogue about human rights on the ground.

In terms of the tools used for the assessment, I primarily used the elements from the Danish Institute for Human Rights and Rights and Democracy's tools to structure the different steps of the assessment and to develop customized questions and indicators about specific categories of human rights issues.

Most importantly, I was able to undertake two field missions to Eritrea. I know that it has been rare for human rights observers to have direct access to Eritrea. This access has therefore given me a heightened sense of responsibility to ensure that the assessment contributes to constructive dialogue and positive actions about human rights at the Bisha mine. On both my visits, this past September and in January, I spent approximately 10 days divided between Asmara and the Bisha mine site and undertook the following activities.

I conducted interviews with Eritrean stakeholders, including workers, community leaders, managers, government officials, national-level unions, lawyers, and labour tribunal judges. The interviews with workers included confidential individual interviews and focus groups with male and female employees.

I conducted site visits to various areas of the Bisha mine, the Bisha camp, and the camp of the subcontractor, Segen Construction. I conducted formal and informal interviews with workers during those site visits.

I conducted a review of all the relevant policies, management systems, and internal reports and records at Bisha and in the Bisha Mining Share Company headquarters in Asmara.

I reviewed the contracts that BMSC has entered into with the Eritrean government and various contractors and subcontractors. I interviewed relevant managers about the compliance procedures in place to respect these contractual provisions.

Given the past allegations about the Bisha mine, I paid particular attention to reviewing and spot-checking the screening procedures in place to safeguard against the use of national service program workers. I also conducted interviews and reviewed documents in employment files at Segen's headquarters in Asmara.

Throughout the assessment, I experienced cooperation from senior management at Nevsun, BMSC, and ENAMCO, the Eritrean National Mining Corporation, as well as from various Eritrean government officials and judges in the Eritrean labour tribunals. At the same time, I felt that I was at liberty to plan my site visits and conduct private and confidential interviews without interference.

While my investigation was focused on the Bisha mine, of course I extensively reviewed the international reports about the human rights situation in Eritrea, including reports with respect to the recent universal periodic review in February 2014, when Eritrea's national human rights record was examined by the UN Human Rights Council.

Finally, as you will see from my report, I have extensively relied upon the UN's Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights for framing the assessment. Obviously, these UN guiding principles are the relevant global standard for business and human rights; however, I find them particularly useful because they emphasize a procedural approach to ongoing human rights due diligence. Whereas my assessment represents a snapshot of various human rights issues in time, it is intended to contribute to the development of the policies, management systems, and grievance mechanisms that are needed for Nevsun to respect human rights on an ongoing basis and in accordance with the UN guiding principles.

As I mentioned before, I will leave the specific findings in the report to the question period. I'd like to give a few concluding observations about this particular assessment.

First, there are some differences between external reports and what I was able to observe on the ground. Frankly, I expected a more militarized and overtly repressive environment than I witnessed in Asmara and at the mine site. I acknowledge that my investigation did not delve into some of the complex civil and political rights issues that are reported about Eritrea. But my first and second impressions of the country, and particularly the mine site, do not concord with the characterization of Eritrea as the North Korea of Africa.

Second, an overarching theme of my conversations with all Eritrean stakeholders is that the Bisha mine is serving as an important precedent for mining in Eritrea. Even in casual conversations on the streets of Asmara, people are aware of and interested in Bisha's activities.

Furthermore, the development of the overall mining sector in Eritrea is well reported. Also, I had the opportunity to attend the Asmara Mining Conference during my first visit and was able to see the domestic and international interest in developing the country's resource wealth. This broader context reinforced in my mind the importance of using a capacity-building approach to increase the awareness of Eritrean officials, managers, and workers of business and human rights and to identify opportunities for leverage and dialogue for the development of the overall mining sector.

Third, there were clearly sensitivities on the part of the Eritrean government about framing the assessment in terms of international human rights standards that they believe have been politicized. Without detracting from the importance of those standards, it was often much more productive and constructive to have conversations about underlying principles, such as respect, equality, freedom, and fairness. Moreover, in my report I have tried to link these international standards to national legislation and the policies in place at the Bisha mine in order to provide reference points for local actors.

Fourth, as in many backwards-facing assessments, there is always the challenge of adequately assessing allegations from the past. To put it bluntly, I don't have a time machine, nor do I have the powers of a judicial inquiry to compel witnesses and evidence. The inability to make a definitive finding about some of the past allegations about the Bisha mine emphasized for me the importance of ongoing work by Nevsun and its business partners to strengthen credible and effective grievance mechanisms. These mechanisms can play a vital complementary role to a human rights impact assessment and can provide a channel for concerns that I wasn't able to uncover to come forward.

Finally, as I mentioned at the beginning, I think that Nevsun's approach to transparency about the assessment and its engagement with stakeholders about the report's recommendations and a follow-up action plan should be commended. Many Canadian mining companies do not conduct human rights assessments and there is no legal requirement for them to do so. Of those that have done so, many have not published their reports for various reasons. Nevsun's voluntary transparency is therefore a positive example and provides the context for my appearance today and for our ability to have a conversation about human rights at the Bisha mine.

With your permission, I will turn the floor over to Mr. Romaine.

1:15 p.m.

Todd Romaine Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.

Good afternoon. My name is Todd Romaine. I'm the vice-president for corporate social responsibility for Nevsun Resources, which is a Vancouver-based Canadian mining company.

As part of our evolving CSR program, Nevsun Resources decided it was important to undertake an extensive external assessment on how the Bisha mine compares both in a national and international context with respect to human rights of our workforce. This was primarily precipitated by our company's broader understanding of how human rights fits into our expanding CSR program, as well as to address historic stakeholder concerns. The idea behind this specific human rights impact assessment was that of Nevsun Resources, but we received full cooperation and support from the Government of Eritrea. To our understanding, this is the first human rights impact assessment ever undertaken in Eritrea.

Both Nevsun Resources and the Government of Eritrea decided early on, before the release of the report and its findings, that we were committed to transparency with our stakeholders. This was based on both the idea of putting everything on the table and addressing any outstanding issues, as well as our confidence back then that everything that we had done to date would meet positive standards.

To date, we have met with various stakeholders face to face to discuss the findings of this report and to gather input and suggested next steps to ensure that the Bisha mine and its governance model continue to evolve. These meetings have included numerous NGOs, including MiningWatch, Amnesty International, UNICEF, as well as a planned meeting with Human Rights Watch in New York in July. We've also met with the Government of Canada, institutional investors, ethical investor funds, human rights lawyers, as well as a planned meeting with the UN in July.

Some if not all of the suggestions made by our stakeholders in addition to what is being recommended in the report will be discussed internally at Nevsun and with the Government of Eritrea for implementation.

We are, as a company, committed to ongoing transparency with respect to the implementation of these various selected measures. We will be in constant dialogue with our stakeholder population by providing written updates of the progress that we make in these, on our website and through our CSR reporting exercise. Nevsun Resources inherently believes that CSR is a key corporate strategy that is critical in maintaining our social licence to operate in Eritrea. Our success as a Canadian mining company relies on the value-added contribution we provide to the people of Eritrea throughout the life of the project. Our business model is relatively unique to Africa. It is one in which a local national government owns a considerable stake in the business as a mechanism to ensure its citizens are direct beneficial recipients of the extractive industry in terms of local employment, training, supply chain, taxation, and royalties.

The decisions affecting the Bisha mine are that of collaborative consensus, of which our Canadian mining company has had influence to pursue numerous CSR objectives that adhere to the national laws of the country, as well as meet evolving international standards that the Government of Canada recognizes and endorses. The resulting outcome of our partnership has been a successful template which the Eritreans can apply to other mining companies down the road or to other sectors in their expanding economy.

Nevsun Resources is committed to ongoing constructive dialogue with our various stakeholders to ensure that the ongoing development of one of the highest grade mineral deposits on the planet is done so in a way that maximizes local capacity, job opportunities, and various benefits, while minimizing externalities and contributing in a positive holistic manner to Eritrean society.

Thank you.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, we're going to have six-minute question and answer rounds.

We will begin with Mrs. Grewal.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, witnesses, for your time and your presentations.

My question is for Mr. Romaine.

Mr. Romaine, Nevsun's willingness to investigate their corporate social responsibility is undoubtedly an important step that should really be commended. Given Nevsun's important economic role in that region, how do you believe Nevsun can use their commitment to social responsibility and human rights to make a positive impact on the communities around them?

1:20 p.m.

Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.

Todd Romaine

Nevsun Resources believes that we have a very expansive CSR program. We provide jobs. We provide training for local people. We have a robust environmental management program. We have an unbelievable record for our health and safety program. Yesterday we reached 1,000 days at the mine site without a lost-time injury, which is commendable considering that this is the first industrial-type mine site in the country. We have good relationships with our stakeholders. We have numerous grievance mechanisms in place there to allow the public to come forward and air their grievances for quick resolution.

We believe we have committed ourselves to an effective template for how to run an extractive industry collaboratively with the Government of Eritrea, and we believe this will be used as a precedent for future activities in the country.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Nevsun ensures that its workers are discharged from Eritrea's national service program. However, what about the workers' family members? Are these family members safe from retaliation or punishment from the Eritrean government as well?

1:20 p.m.

Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.

Todd Romaine

I can't comment on that specific question, but what I can say is that we have a very robust and evolving screening process. We believe it is effective in maintaining that all workers at our Bisha mine site, whether they be contractors or subcontractors, are free of military service.

There is an extensive screening process that ensures that all prospective employers must prove that they are in fact cleared from military service. This information is then verified with the government in Asmara. Part of Lloyd Lipsett's research was undertaken to double-check the authenticity of the process to ensure that all workers there are free at their own will.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Sorry, when you said all prospective employers, I think you meant all prospective employees.

1:20 p.m.

Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.

Todd Romaine

Sorry, Scott, can you clarify that?

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Yes. Did you mean all prospective employees are cleared? You said all prospective employers.

1:20 p.m.

Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.

Todd Romaine

All prospective employees are cleared of military service.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

The issue of human rights in Eritrea is of course a very delicate issue. The Government of Canada, the UN, and other various human rights organizations are deeply concerned about the testimony and findings that have emerged. What do you believe is the most effective manner in which Canada can engage with the Eritrean government on this matter?

1:20 p.m.

Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.

Todd Romaine

We believe that the Bisha mine and Canadian mining companies such as Nevsun are making a positive impact on the country. We cannot speak on the comments made by others with respect to the state of Eritrea, but our experience since the late 1990s has been very positive.

We have seen a world-class operation being developed in partnership with the Government of Eritrea. We see high levels of local employment. We see considerable taxation revenue being provided to the government which in turn uses it for community infrastructure and development of the country. We see that the mine site is positively received by the population. We do believe from a Canadian context that we're adding value with respect to relationships between Canada and Eritrea.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Mr. Lipsett, in your presentation you mentioned that there appeared to be some sort of differences between the external reports and what you observed in Eritrea. Could you please expand on what these differences are?

1:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Lloyd Lipsett

As I mentioned, I'd read many of these reports before going to Eritrea, and I expected to see more overt repression as you see in other one-party states. I didn't see that. As for the people whom I spoke to both formally and informally, I did not observe traits of people who were fearful.

However, I will acknowledge that I've only been there twice and I was very focused on the issues pertaining to the Bisha mine. For example, I wasn't doing investigations of prison conditions or places where some of the allegations that are quite serious are made, so I have to admit that my view of Eritrea is partial. They were a significant backdrop, all of these important reports that have been made by various organizations and the United Nations.

I left after the first time with a sense of perplexity. Had the wool been pulled over my eyes? Had I been asking the wrong questions? Had I been talking to the wrong people? It was important for me to go back a second time and approach these issues from different angles to deepen conversations with certain individuals or groups and to try to expand my understanding of the situation. I came away again with a sense that the level of openness of people to speak with me about issues.... They have a nuance on their understanding of the political situation there that maybe is not in some of the reports, and so I came away with something. There are two stories and there's a middle narrative. Once again, I do stress that my investigation was focused on the issues pertaining directly to Bisha, not on the broader human rights issues that are sometimes raised.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Chair, do we have some more time?