Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 5th, 2014

[Lloyd Lipsett]

Indeed, I did. I actually obtained a copy of the Segen Construction company's collective agreement. It was in the local language. I had it translated and read through the 60-odd articles of that collective agreement. I had extensive conversations with Segen management, about how they're implementing that collective agreement, as well as with labour tribunal officials to whom sometimes, if an issue cannot be resolved within the collective agreement framework, issues come to the labour tribunal.

Most important, with regard to the legislative framework, I had extensive conversations with the ministry of labour and human welfare about their view on collective agreements in the Eritrean economy.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I think the sands of time are running out on me.

Can you share with us—I think it's important because you mentioned these one-on-one interviews that you had, the nature of them, particularly with those people who are front line? These would be the people who, in the reports, would most likely be subject to conscription, forced labour, and of course extension of their conscription. Can you give us an idea about how those conversations went and why you thought, and are testifying here today, that they're authentic?

[Lloyd Lipsett]

There are a couple of elements to it. One is the nature of the questions that you pose. In an interview, you will pose similar questions in a number of different ways at different times to ensure there's consistency within it.

I tried to ask open questions to get someone to explain a story, a narrative, and then would follow up with some detailed questions to see if it held together.

When dealing with the front-line people, I don't try to come off as cross-examining someone. I want to try and build a relationship of confidence. In that sense, it's very important to make assurances around the confidentiality, to explain what my role is in terms of providing recommendations to the company and to the government to improve the situation, to try to create a safe environment and context for them to open up.

Obviously, a lot of it is about observing the body language and the demeanour of someone, and whether they appear to be shifty, scared, or so on.

There are some other techniques that are used. You follow up the second time and try to meet with the same person to see if their story holds together three months later. A big part of it is getting enough of a sample size, to talk with enough of the people to see if the aggregate story kind of adds up or doesn't.

The one thing that I will say, and it's an ongoing matter of discussion, is that we know there are people that have made allegations about Bisha mine that are likely outside of Eritrea. I think they've been in contact with some of the NGOs.

I did not have access to these people in my report, but it is a subject of our ongoing discussions. Mr. Romaine mentioned we'll be meeting with Human Rights Watch in New York later.

There is, I believe, a sincere attempt to reach out to these organizations to see if there are people that I was not able to have access to, and to facilitate some manner of bringing their concerns forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Romaine, you were going to say something.

[Todd Romaine]

I just wanted to add that we do have an expanded whistle-blower policy that we developed last year which will enable all stakeholders, past, present and future, to bring forward any kind of confidential non-financial or financial code of ethic violations. That would be reviewed confidentially by our Vancouver office.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Before we go to Professor Cotler, I want to ask a question.

You explained you have a system for randomizing the list of employees. When you meet with somebody, typically how long would you be meeting with or interviewing them?

[Lloyd Lipsett]

An average interview would be somewhere between half an hour and an hour. Group interviews are another thing. They are less likely to get at very specific individual issues, but they're good at getting a broad understanding of how different groups feel and sort of more to the collective issues.

I always try to have focus groups for female employees, in particular, who are often in the minority in a mining context. That's a good way for women to try to surface issues. Those tend to last a bit longer, an hour and a half.

Interviews with managers can be quite long, two to three hours, because I will actually go through their policies, procedures and so on. It's often with managers that I will go and inspect different areas of the work site and so on.

Interviews with government officials tend to be about an hour and a half. With the government, particularly the ministry of labour and human welfare, I had several at increasingly high levels.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

When you're dealing with somebody at the mine site itself, someone who's not in a management position but who is an employee, and you're meeting with them individually, who's in the room: yourself, that person, and I'm guessing a translator?

[Lloyd Lipsett]

In most cases it was just myself and the individual or the group. There were some with the more, let's say, low-level or local workers where a translator was present. That was one of the community liaison officers. Sometimes, in order to explain context, I would have their manager come and give an introduction of why Mr. Lipsett was there and what he's doing, but then that person would leave the room and I would conduct it with no management or governmental presence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Professor Cotler, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Lipsett, my colleague Mr. Marston mentioned the appearance before our committee of Mr. Cliff Davis, on November 1, 2012. At one point, in the course of his appearance, I put to him the question that we have heard witness testimony, and references made to this, about the widespread and systematic human rights violations in Eritrea, UN reports, indeed our own government reports, and those that you are familiar with.

I then went on to ask him if he had “any concerns about these human rights violations. Have they been reported to you? Have any of the villagers, any groups, reported to you about any human rights violations?” He answered, “No.” I then said, “So you have received no reports of any human rights violations while you have been in Eritrea.” He said, “No.”

I'm pleased, as I think Mr. Marston indicated, and all of us here, about the field missions that you have undertaken and the human rights impact assessment. Indeed, in your testimony today you made reference to your own acknowledgement of the international reports that we have referenced in the testimony. You also said that there are these reports, and then there are what you have heard. True, these are narratives, and the truth is somehow in the middle. I'm rather not responsive to narratives. I'm usually more responsive to facts.

Do you think that all of these international reports, of which you are aware and have read and even referenced in your testimony today, are just narratives, or would you regard them as corroborative statements of witness testimony?

[Lloyd Lipsett]

I can't comment on those because I wasn't part of the methodology, but I tend to give the UN and such organizations a great deal of deference in terms of their reporting and their methodologies. So I would not, sort of a priori, dismiss those in any sense.

What I also note in the UN reports is that the treatment is mostly about the conduct of the state. The treatment of business responsibility is quite thin in those reports. I think that will, with future reports, evolve and there will be more analysis by UN agencies of these now that the UN guiding principles have been adopted and there is more attention on these issues.

Certainly the one report that everyone here will be familiar with is the Human Rights Watch report about the mining sector in Eritrea. I have respect for Human Rights Watch as an organization and certainly read the report attentively and used some of the concerns there to frame my own areas of inquiry. Because their specific allegations dated back to 2009, I was not able to corroborate them or not. I think I'm quite open about that in the report and say that for those past factual issues there need to be grievance mechanisms that are credible and effective, and that those can be addressed in an appropriate manner.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Those with whom you met, villagers or groups and the like, did any of them report to you about human rights violations, or their acknowledgement of the violations that you shared with them in these reports?

[Lloyd Lipsett]

I met with national-level stakeholders—and I'll be vague about who they were—who did talk about concerns in some cases around the national service program.

People I spoke with in a general sense about that, their concern didn't seem to be about the existence of a national service program per se, but they wanted to have the government respect the 18-month limit on that.

In discussions with local workers and villagers and village elders, the issues were very much around the positive aspects. The workers really appreciate the jobs, the much higher-paying job than what is available in other sectors, as well as the skill formation that they're getting. They appear to be quite proud to be part of something kind of new and modern that maybe represents a bit of an opening of the economy.

The village elders did make specific requests that they would like to have further dialogue with the company, that they appreciated the engagement through the community liaison officers. They said they expect to have this ongoing dialogue about potential negative things, such as dust from trucks on the road, or positive things, such as having further jobs or programs in their communities.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I probably have time for only one more question and it could be answered by you or by Mr. Romaine, as by his own acknowledgement he's made a number of regular visits to Eritrea.

From your own experience and your own encounters there, do you have any specific recommendations regarding what might be our own particular governmental or parliamentary role or responsibility regarding these issues?

[Lloyd Lipsett]

I have a couple of ideas.

I think what Nevsun has done is responsive to some of the suggestions that have been made by this committee previously. Mr. Romaine has talked about ongoing reporting on these, so I think that keeping a dialogue with Nevsun about how they follow up on these recommendations would be good.

There are also other Canadian companies that are operating in Eritrea. Maybe there is a conversation to be had with them about their approach.

Finally, I know that the government's CSR policy for the extractor sector is currently under review. In the initial version five years ago they made some passing references to the work of John Ruggie, and the protect, respect and remedy framework. Now that those have been adopted in the UN guiding principles, Canada might consider making more formally those standards as one of the international standards that extractive companies should abide by, which would provide a similar framework that Nevsun's work on this project has been framed by.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Romaine.

[Todd Romaine]

To add, we see CSR as a key strategic objective for Nevsun Resources, and we will continue to work with the Eritrean government, inch by inch, on expanding our CSR portfolio at the Bisha mine.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We'll go to Mr. Schellenberger now.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you very much for your presentation today.

I'm from southwestern Ontario, and right now we have a big problem. We have a company named Samsung and we have wind turbine farms that are going in all over the place. The company has a great relationship with the provincial government, but the local governments have been stripped of all of their rights to say whether they would like this to come into their community or not.

My thing is with Nevsun.... You talk about having a great relationship with the Eritrean government, and the workers at the mine are quite pleased, and some of those people who have some of that work are quite pleased. But I can tell you right here in Canada, some of the recourse that comes from that. These wind farms get put into place, and people have to leave their homes because they get sick and various things happen.

Could you identify some of the programs that describe a positive impact on the Eritrean community? Were some of the groups that you talked to kind of chosen groups? Were you free to go to pretty well anyone, or were there some that were off base?

[Lloyd Lipsett]

In terms of the local communities, in my initial trip, I had a meeting with all of the leaders from the five or six villages. Their traditional leader came, and we had a very long and interesting conversation. They talked a lot about the positives, the fact that members of their villages have employment and how that's a very positive thing for them. They spoke a bit—these were male traditional leaders—about the changing roles of women who are now employed in the wage workforce at Bisha.

They talked about, as I mentioned before, their expectation for ongoing dialogue. I think this gets to your point that these people would represent some sort of local governance. They want to feel that they're in dialogue. They said they felt that to date there has been an open and back and forth dialogue that has been able to address issues informally. They want to ensure that proceeds. There were certain requests—I reflected a few of them in my report—around literacy, training for adults, older members of the community being able to take advantage of job opportunities, and so on. That's the traditional leadership at the village level.

There was also something that I noted in the most recent report from the Government of Eritrea to the UN Human Rights Council. They listed some recent reforms that are going to decentralize decision-making on some regional development activities to what's called the zoba level. That would be kind of a—I don't know if province is the right analogy—subdivision level. I recommended to Nevsun to continue its dialogue with the government and the sub-regional level about implementation of what they call the community assistance program. Then through a process of dialogue with these people, they could target programs that may provide further benefits to the communities.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Romaine.

[Todd Romaine]

It's one of the challenges of operating in Eritrea. The Government of Eritrea has a very different view on CSR. They believe that CSR is the responsibility of the state, not of a corporation. They believe that the benefits of resource extraction should be applied equitably across the country. Therefore, it has been a challenge for us to provide more direct benefits to the communities.

That being said, though, we are confident that through ongoing negotiation with the government, we will be able to decentralize our CAP, community assistance plan, funding to the communities. In addition, with more mines operating in the country, many of them coming from G-8 countries, there will be expectations from shareholders with those companies operating in Eritrea to decentralize some of the benefits to the nearby communities.