Evidence of meeting #32 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was eritrea.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you.
I'll pass the next question to my colleague.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Lipsett, please entertain me. You mentioned a political nuance that was brought up. It sounded like you met on several occasions, and we've had some other testimony before the committee, most specifically the day before yesterday, that political nuance was to give the Eritrean government a lot of space as far as human rights are concerned because they live in a state of alert, in constant threat of attack.
Is that the kind of nuance that most of them were giving space to the government regarding?
1:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I found in discussions that if I led with, say the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or something, I would get a reaction about how the UN and the agencies that have created these international human rights standards were politicized and how they're dominated by certain great powers that are active in the region, and so on and so forth, so I quickly found an approach where I started from the ground up rather than the top down. I would start with looking at the policies of the Bisha mine, which are quite extensive, and have actually quite pragmatic and operational focus on the principles that you would find in the international covenants and the international labour declarations. I talked about that because that is something that had been negotiated between the government and Nevsun. We could really get into a meaty conversation and not get into abstract conversations about the politics of the UN.
The next level up would be to talk about the national legal framework. In some cases we know that the constitution has been suspended, so that's not really on point, but for instance, on many issues the labour proclamation in Eritrea has things that you could cut and paste from an international labour declaration. You could have a very good conversation about that.
It's not to dismiss the importance of the international declarations as the overall framing of my work, but to have a constructive conversation, I found it easier to start at the references that people were familiar with and accepted at the ground. Then we're not into existential or political conversations, but rather something focused and pragmatic.
2 p.m.
Conservative
June 5th, 2014 / 2 p.m.
NDP
Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Thank you both for being here.
I would like to join my colleague in commending the efforts of Nevsun in taking steps forward into a more transparent atmosphere in corporate social responsibility.
The burning question I have kind of follows on the heels of my colleague, Mr. Sweet, in terms of testimony that I've heard in the last little while and how terms like “nuance”, “politicization”, and so forth keep creeping back into the discussion. I have to be honest. It does cause me concern because when we start talking that way, for me it's not a clear answer. Yes, not all of life's answers can be clear, but when we're dealing with people's rights, clarity is something that is paramount.
I would like your opinion on why there's such a discrepancy, for lack of a better way of putting it, between what you experienced on the ground in your visits and the various reports from other outside agencies. Part B of that question would be, why do they have such difficulty in getting the kind of access that you got that would, if those statements are true, go a long way to changing the view of these outside agencies?
2 p.m.
As an Individual
As a matter of personal opinion, I think that giving more access to some of these other groups that have credibility and so on would probably do the country of Eritrea—not necessarily the government, but the country—a service in the sense that additional people seeing with their own eyes would create perhaps a less contested view of what the situation is on the ground. I hope that the precedent that has been set through this will in some way open the door and maybe create a bit of comfort that the sky is not going to fall if you let a human rights expert into the country.
From my general understanding, this hasn't been pursued, but the UN agencies have been encouraged by a step made by the Government of Eritrea to re-enter into negotiations with the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights on human rights capacity building, which would probably give access to them. They would be, obviously, a very credible organization to work with the government and to do monitoring activities. I hope that goes forward.
In terms of my own personal view and trying to ensure that, as I said before, I didn't have the wool pulled over my eyes, it's continuing the engagement with some of the NGO groups that do claim to be in contact with some people who may have escaped the country or left the country voluntarily.
You said it's important on matters of rights to have clarity. What I'm dealing with is issues in a fairly broad span. I wasn't dealing with any specific cases. Those would be most appropriately dealt with through some forum for access to remedy, whether it be the company's own grievance mechanisms or some other external mechanism here in Canada. We have a number of outward-facing mechanisms for complaints to be brought forward about Canadian companies. That's where I think it would be most appropriate to get to clarity and truth around specific allegations or concerns.
Finally, I just hope that there is more access, and either I will be confirmed or contradicted in what I was able to observe.
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
I hope the chair will give me a little latitude.
Mr. Romaine, you were talking about the decentralization of some of the activities or decision-making processes, to be able to have a more direct effect on the communities around your area.
I'm sorry, but I can't remember which one of you spoke to things like literacy projects and that type of thing. What kind of work, if any, is being done by Nevsun to bring up, educate, and train the next generation of Eritreans to participate at a higher level in the functioning of Nevsun so that the work that's being done benefits them in more than just a worker aspect but a decision-making aspect as well?
2:05 p.m.
Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.
We have ongoing dialogue with the Government of Eritrea on that of localization. It's a key objective for the government. It's a key objective of Nevsun to ensure that we maximize local employment opportunities as well as provide pertinent training to give skill sets so Eritreans can receive greater levels of responsibility and pay in the mining sector.
On site at the Bisha mine, we have an extensive training centre there. We put through hundreds of Eritreans annually through various different training programs there. Many of these individuals don't even have CVs or any practical vocational experience, so we actually train them on site there, and provide them with letters of authenticity to say that they have completed program A or program B. That enables them to grow within the Bisha mine or to work in other sectors within the mining industry in Eritrea.
Currently, as it stands, nearly 91% of our workforce is Eritrean, which is quite a considerable feat considering this is the first modern mining industry in the country. Now 42% of our senior management team is Eritrean. We will continue to increase those numbers.
We see training as a key component of the benefit that Nevsun Resources and the Government of Eritrea can bring to the country.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you. You're out of, and actually over, time.
We're going to have to turn in a second to another matter of a few motions, but before we do that, I have one final question.
Mr. Lipsett, you used the phrase “capacity-building approach”. Could you define that for us?
2:05 p.m.
As an Individual
In the emerging literature around human rights impact assessments, there is a growing discussion around what are some of the objectives or benefits of these particular tools. One that is recurring is about the ability of these processes to inform the rights holders, the workers or the community members, about what their rights are and what they mean.
In my report, I recommend further human rights training for employees and so on. I try to do a bit of that as I approach it, just to give people a sense of what that framework is and a sense that in addition to these local policies that are in place, these reflect standards. Also, I think, educating people around the quite new UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights, and about how the government has a certain set of obligations, and companies have a certain set of responsibilities is to give them a context for my work.
As I think I mentioned, it's in the hope that if there's going to be a follow-up to this, relevant managers and employees will be able to contextualize their roles as environment managers or security department people and how it is fitting into a bigger picture of human rights respect and protection.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you.
To our witnesses, you don't have to leave, but we're going to excuse you. We're going to move on to some other items of business. You have our thanks for having come here and for providing us with your testimony.
Colleagues and committee members, we have three motions that were put before us. There has been some discussion. I'll just ask the question. Are there any of them that do not have consensus at this point?
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Yes. On Mr. Marston's motion regarding Vietnam, I think we have agreement all the way through.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
2:10 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Yes. The only issue is that I added the Viet Tan. He's aware of that.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Okay, but the version the clerk needs.... Can you read the version you have there, Mr. Marston?
2:10 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
It is that the Subcommittee on International Human Rights invite back those witnesses from the May 29, 2014, meeting studying the human rights situation in Vietnam so they can complete their testimony. I added the Viet Tan. Mr. Sweet was in agreement with that.
2:10 p.m.
An hon. member
Agreed.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Okay. That one is done.
Let's go to the other ones.
Professor Cotler, one of yours has consensus. Let's deal with that one.