Evidence of meeting #45 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was political.
A video is available from Parliament.
November 25th, 2014 / 2 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you.
Thank you for your testimony here today. It has really opened my eyes to what's going on in Venezuela.
You have asked that Canada stand up against the Venezuelan government and ask for the release of the political prisoners in Venezuela. To this point, how many countries have stood up and asked for your husband's release and for the release of other political prisoners? It might give me an idea of what part of the world supports your initiative.
2 p.m.
As an Individual
One is the UN. The Working Group on Arbitrary Detention asked for the immediate release of Leopoldo López. Then the high commissioner asked for the release of Leopoldo López and all political prisoners in Venezuela, as did President Obama of the United States and Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy of Spain. We also have Insulza and different ex-presidents; right now, today in Europe we have a group of ex-presidents asking for the release of Leopoldo López and political prisoners. We also have Amnesty International asking for the release of Leopoldo López, as is Human Rights Watch.
2 p.m.
Managing Director, Perseus Strategies
I would just mention that while we're not tracking all of them, we also have countless parliamentarians from various parliaments and from all different kinds of political parties all over the world who are issuing their own statements of support and concern or who are calling for the release of Leopoldo. We're tracking as many of them as we can.
The reality is that we've been at this most intensely for the last four or five months. I think at the beginning of his detention there was understandably a desire to figure out what was going on on the ground, what the dynamics were going to be, and whether there was going to be any possibility of a diplomatic resolution. Upon concluding that there was not, that's really when we started to build the public side of this case and the global support.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
I've noticed before with this committee that we have witnesses here at various times with various testimony. Sometimes we get involved and we don't bring in a report for some time, and by that time it's history. Would a statement from this committee today in support of your initiative, a statement put out in short order, help in your quest?
2 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, a lot. You can't imagine—a lot. First, because we have had nine months with political prisoners in prison, students in prison, and torture inside the prisons. Yesterday, El Gato and Baduel, in the Uribana jail, were tortured. They broke their knees and ribs. It was difficult. That was yesterday.
We are working. We are working on all of this to stop the violation of human rights. For Venezuela, and I think for the world, Canada has the flag of human rights, first of all. I think that if Canada and the Parliament make a statement today, it's going to be really, really helpful and really, really strong for our fight.
2 p.m.
Managing Director, Perseus Strategies
I would note that Lilian—you may not believe this, and I was even surprised—is, of course, a force to be reckoned with on the ground. More interestingly, she has 1.4 million Twitter followers, which is more than pretty much any parliamentarian and anyone in your government has. Leopoldo himself has about 3.4 million. A statement from the subcommittee today would be tweeted out to five million people or six million people, and I would describe it as a huge breath of fresh air, of oxygen, of hope, for a better tomorrow, to have such cross-party support coming from the Canadian Parliament. It would be really tremendous.
2:05 p.m.
As an Individual
This is about humanity and dignity; it's not about politicians. We are fighting for something that we connect with around the world.
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Thank you.
Welcome, and thank you for your testimony, both of you, and for your bravery.
We hear testimony very often in this committee in regard to individuals or governments acting with impunity, which is the situation that you're facing in Venezuela. It's a phrase that I've used very often, but it's basically trying to deal rationally with an irrational person or entity. That's a very hard thing to do.
As your fight escalates, as you try to gain the support that you're looking for, is there fear that you have in regard to the continued safety of your husband in your quest to have him set free?
2:05 p.m.
As an Individual
I live in fear. I live in fear that when I return from this kind of work and this kind of testimony around the world, they will close the door of the jail and I won't be able to see Leopoldo. I fear that they will punish me. And I fear persecution from the police—always. There is a car from the police, the government, that is always with me. They say hello and I say hello, and they say, “we need to do this”. But it's not good, and it is not easy. It's difficult.
But inside of my heart and inside of my mind I feel good because I am doing the thing that I need to do for my country and for my husband, and I can't stop. Day one, I stop. One of the military in Ramo Verde told me, “If you shut up, you're going to have visits. If not, I'm going to close off your visits.” I say, “Okay, so close my visits because I can't stop.” I'm talking about human rights. I'm talking about respect. I'm talking about all of our Venezuelan people who can't talk because they are silenced and they are persecuted.
María Corina Machado is one of my partners, and she can't go out of Venezuela because they ordered that she can't go out and speak about her country. It's amazing. We live in fear, but I don't complain because my situation is a proof of life.
I think about the mother of Génesis Carmona, one of the girls that a military shot in the face. She died in his home...in the gate of this building, with a protest. She only wanted a better country, and the military shot her face. [Witness speaks in Spanish], the mother of this girl, is fighting and is looking for justice for her daughter. I always think about [Witness speaks in Spanish, and I think about the mother of Bassil Da Costa, a student, who was murdered on February 12.
I always think about all victims who I represent around the world, and I need to continue. We need to continue, and we have full strength, in fact, that we are going to have change in Venezuela
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
With that in mind then, what forms of international pressure other than statements would you call for? You've talked about President Obama making statements. You're looking for this committee to make a statement. What other forms of international pressure do you feel might be effective in helping your cause?
2:05 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, I think the statement by the high commissioner of the UN is very important around the world because the UN is an institution to protect and promote human rights. This is like the top of our fight. Through this UN statement, a lot of countries can connect and can ask for the release of Leopoldo López and other prisoners in Venezuela.
The other thing is that people who have met with Maduro and who know Maduro can tell him to release political prisoners. You don't have a democracy in your country if you have political prisoners in jail without evidence. They don't have any evidence on students or on Leopoldo. In the case of Leopoldo, I'm really critical of the trial. There's no evidence and no testimony showing that Leopoldo was responsible for anything.
2:10 p.m.
Managing Director, Perseus Strategies
Let me just add briefly, having the Canadian ambassador to Venezuela try to observe the trial—technically it's open, but there are only four seats for observers—even showing up sends a message to the Government of Venezuela; ensuring that in every conversation any of you have with anybody where the conversation on Venezuela comes up, that you ask about the situation of political prisoners; for all of you on the committee to seek a meeting, even as a whole committee, with the new Venezuelan ambassador to Canada to say you would like to talk about issues of concern, and to speak with one voice to that new ambassador about what's going on.
Obviously, there's a whole range of other tools, diplomatic ways of exerting pressure on the Government of Venezuela, but also working collaboratively with like-minded governments at the Human Rights Council in Geneva, working through the OAS, and through your representation to the OAS. I think the government can engage in a broad range of ways. Simply standing in solidarity publicly—and the reason we're emphasizing that is this throws a cloak of protection over Lilian and her family, and sends a clear message to President Maduro that if anything were to happen to her or her family there would be consequences. I think that is most important.
The last thing I'll mention, and I know time is very short, is that we've talked about the violations for which we have proof. The reality is there are also killings going on in Venezuela, which we know to be extrajudicial killings, but we don't have the physical evidence to demonstrate it. I'll give you two examples.
The first example was when the three prisoners were gunned down on February 12 by security forces at the time. A student leader held one of the other people who was shot in the head while he died, literally on the street. He then left the scene covered in blood and sent a tweet saying that this person just died in his arms, what had his country become? Three hours later he was sitting in his home in Venezuela when three guys with masks and machine guns broke into the house and gunned him down and then disappeared. So possible street crime? Sure. But the tweet had been widely circulated, and the idea that this was a coincidence strikes me as somewhat unlikely.
The other example is that the government had been putting intense pressure on Leopoldo and his closest friends and allies. Literally all his friends and allies are dead, in hiding, or in exile. His two closest friends, whose wives were very close friends with Lilian, were gunned down. They were on a hike a number of months ago. They had just parked their bikes to go on a hike; both were shot at point-blank range, and killed. Wallets were left behind, money in the wallets, bikes left, so possibly it was just a street crime. Sure. But to me it comes across as a clear message that they will get them, they will get anyone who is close to them, wherever they can. The leaving behind of a large wad of cash and credit cards and the bikes sends a very clear message to me that this was not at all about some street crime gone awry. This was to send a message to Leopoldo that they could get them anywhere.
This is the kind of country that Venezuela is today, and this is why all of us so desperately need your help, and Lilian and her family particularly need your help and support. I'll tell you as well, with one more sentence, that Leopoldo gave me very clear instructions that he will not be the first political prisoner out; he'll be the last political prisoner out. If they offer him an early release or otherwise, he will decline. He will not leave the prison unless all the rest of the political prisoners go with him, and they would have to physically manhandle him out of the prison if any other political prisoner were left behind. To me, that speaks volumes about the kind of man he is, about the vision he has for his country, and about how important it is for all of us to stand in solidarity with such brave people as Leopoldo, Lilian, their children, and their family, who so desperately need our help.
2:15 p.m.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
In response to what Gary Schellenberger said, I have drafted in effect a resolution and presentation with respect to adoption by us. I can either read it out now, if I can read my own handwriting, or have it prepared for our next meeting, given the time, circulate it, and we could act on it as the first order of business at our next meeting.
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
It sounds as if that's the direction we're heading in. Thank you very much for that, Professor Cotler.
Thank you, Mr. Genser. We can always rely on you to care deeply and act effectively in these matters. Also, Ms. Tintori, we're very grateful to you for your courage, and of course to Leopoldo, for his courage on behalf of the people of your country. Thank you very much.