Evidence of meeting #46 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rick Craig  Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

1:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

Rick Craig

I don't have the exact numbers, because I haven't been able to get them. When we started this work about six or seven years ago, most of the reports said that where they were getting murder convictions was in cases of flagrancia, where people were found committing. You might find if there's a domestic violence murder, say, that is an easier matter. But if you're talking about cases where they have to investigate and then charge and then convict, when we started this work about six or seven years ago in Honduras, the information I had was that it was virtually zero.

I don't know where it is now. We haven't been able to get that information, but it is information we need to get.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Ms. Grewal, go ahead please.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Mr. Craig, for your time today.

I certainly appreciate your expertise in justice and human rights. Since your organization is currently joining the northern triangle project to strengthen justice and anti-crime systems in Honduras, could you elaborate on how effective the project has been? How do you choose who to train, and how widely have those people been impacting Honduras?

1:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

Rick Craig

The current project is going to end in June, but the project has been ongoing and we're in phase two of it, so we've been working in some of these countries for about six or seven years. We work in the three countries: Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras. We had been doing work previously in Guatemala.

We collect a lot of evidence of results, and we do it in different ways. The best results are in Guatemala because that's where we're most advanced. We have the proof around the conviction rate going from basically 2% to 5% and now up to 30%. We have all that information. We collect the results in different ways. We collect it by statistics, but we also collect it by trying to look at, as we're doing training, whether that training is resulting in evidence that is being used in specific cases that are going to trial, and whether those cases are resulting in convictions.

In the case of the ballistics information, we're finding out how many cases they've actually been able to get hits on and to then produce the information and pass the information over to the prosecutors. Also, then, is that evidence being used in trial? That's how we do our evaluation. Every now and then we have another case that comes up where they've used the evidence, and we can justify that and show that the evidence was functional.

Results-wise, Guatemala would say that Canada is the preferred partner and that we've probably done, I think, the most to help in this process. I think we're making good progress. Of the three countries, Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras, Honduras is the most challenging. We've had to deal with the instability.

That said, we have a lot of examples of evidence where we can say that we are making a difference. I think we're not where we need to be. I think Honduras is not where this needs to be. I think it's going to take at least another five years to consolidate this investigative agenda, and then, of course, you're looking at the need to roll it out in the whole country. The problem is that we're dealing with a lot of numbers. If you deal with a country like Honduras, you're probably dealing with about 600 prosecutors, and they all have to be trained. Then you have the technicians. You have all the other players and, of course, there's the work with the judiciary.

I think our work is being acknowledged internationally as being very effective, but that said, there's a lot to do.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

If we were to look a decade into the future, what should Honduras be aiming for in terms of their justice system? What is the next practical step in achieving this? What role do you see your organization playing in that?

1:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

Rick Craig

At the end of the day, in addition to the technical support, there has to be political will, so there have to be some Honduran champions, ideally at the political level and at the leadership level.

At the same time we find in a country like Honduras, as in other countries, that when you're dealing with 600 prosecutors, a lot of them are deeply committed and put their lives on the line. We work with them. Those are the people we draw our hope from, because those are the people who want their society to be safe, and that's where my hope comes from.

We build these relationships. We get to know the people. Of course they're the movers and shakers and they're the ones who have to build their institutions. Part of what we're trying to do is work with them hand in glove to ask how you do that in the best way.

For me what has to happen is that ATIC has to succeed. Then ATIC has to be replicated, because even with 100 investigators, ATIC is only going to cover the two major cities and not even do all the work of the two major cities. It's only going to do the major cases. It covers 21 crimes but it will not have the capacity to handle the volume, so it will have to be expanded.

The investigative model has to be consolidated. The crime scene model is being consolidated. Then I think we have to work on the mind piece around trials. If that can happen....

My vision for Honduras is that in 10 years you'll have a system that understands what we talk about when we talk about presumption of innocence, that understands in a much more dynamic way how to engage in an adversarial examination of justice. That does not yet exist, but my hope is that it will.

The other thing we have to realize is that.... I talk a lot about the murders, but for most common people, the most serious problem is all the extortions that are going on, and sometimes that takes the form of express kidnappings. It's really the poor and the middle class and all those who are being extorted all the time by these gangs. For most people, aside from their concern about their own lives, the biggest issue is they're being told to pay money or else they're going to be killed.

Along with building the justice system, they will have to deal with disarticulating the gangs. That has to happen.

Part of that is there are some skills they need to do that. We've been working on that primarily in Guatemala where you have to.... When you're dealing with a barrio, if a gang is controlled by, say, the Mara Dieciocho or the Mara Salvatrucha, they're very violent gangs. They take over the territory. The biggest problem of the youth fleeing from Honduras and Guatemala and El Salvador right now is youth trying to escape being pulled into the gangs. That's the problem the U.S. has where they have these 60,000 youth.

I was just down there and I was talking to a taxi driver and he said he was sending his kid out of the country. I asked how he was doing that and he said it would be underground. I asked why, and he said because the gangs are on him. That is a serious problem. They have to deal with disarticulating these gangs. We have to build functionality, but then they also have to have a strategic capacity.

This is happening in Guatemala now where, for example, they brought down one clika in one barrio where there were 20 members. They killed 32 people in two months. The issue was that they were extorting people and if they didn't pay, they killed them. They united all the cases and they brought down the whole clika.

Honduras is not nearly there, but part of the process has to be in addition to this functionality, the creation of an ability to do this analysis, because otherwise they'll never dismantle. We see that as part of the agenda as well.

My hope would be that in 10 years they'll have this functionality, and at the same time they will have disarticulated some of the structures and there will be more safety.

The other piece on this that is really important is, when you live in a country where the justice system doesn't work, people don't have hope that it can work. Part of this is that we have to create belief within the people that it can work. In our country people believe it can work. When you believe it can work, you do everything and you make it work. But if you're sitting on a caseload of, say, 50 murders, and you know that only one of them will go anywhere, well, what does that do to your confidence and your attitude? This third piece I'm really interested in. It's really important to us that we deal with that piece.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Professor Cotler, please.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I apologize, but I will have to leave after my question. I have to be back at the House just before question period today for other matters.

Thank you, Mr. Craig, for being with us.

I'd like to begin my question by referring to the testimony of Henri-Paul Normandin, director general of the Latin America and Caribbean bureau at the Department of Foreign Affairs. He testified before us on November 6. He also reviewed some of the same concerns that you have shared with us today regarding the culture of corruption and impunity and the reports of human rights defenders, journalists, and justice sector workers being targeted for intimidation and violence, including murder. He mentioned two prospective reforms, and that's what I want to speak to you about, and if time permits, a third.

First, he spoke of the willingness on the part of the government to work with multilateral human rights institutions, including by extending an invitation to the office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights to open an office in Honduras.

Do you see this as a willingness by them to engage even beyond the UN high commissioner with human rights institutions in Latin America, as well as other multilateral ones internationally?

1:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

Rick Craig

I don't know how far they're willing to go. I do see that it represents the fact that they are concerned about their image and that they are concerned, at least when I talk to people, interminably, about the fact that they have to do something in order to deal with these human rights problems.

You know, it's difficult for me to answer that. All I can tell you is what I hear when I talk to people, and to those who work in the system. What I am hearing is at least encouraging.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

My second question has to do with the fact that he referred to the Honduran government adopting legislation for the protection of human rights defenders, journalists, social communicators, and justice operators, but expressed the concern that such legislation would be ineffective unless it were accompanied by sufficient resources and political will, matters that you yourself referenced in your testimony before us on April 30, 2013. You spoke even then of the severe lack of police and prosecutorial capacity in Honduras to investigate crime.

Has this recent legislation included sufficient resources to do what the legislation purports to do?

1:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

Rick Craig

I don't know. I have not followed that. I know there is a problem when they pass laws and they don't allow money, right? We've sometimes seen law as a political gesture with no functional implementation.

What I do think has been happening is that with the primary focus around building these extra pieces, these new programs have been coming out of the tasa de seguridad, this fund they created. To me, that has been the biggest positive development around. Some of the issues you're talking about fall under that, in the sense that the work we're dealing with has come out of that.

I think there are some funds available, more funds than there were. Remember, this particular fund of money only started in 2012. My understanding is that since October 31, 2012, the amount of money allocated has been $170 million. That is a major commitment. This year we're looking at $96 million, but you have to realize, of course, that this is being eaten up by a lot of different players.

The truth of it is that this, to me, is probably where the major commitment is.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Finally, witness testimony here, including that from a representative of Amnesty International, spoke about, as you have today, the culture of impunity in Honduras. Amnesty International witness Esther Major told us that it was important for the President of Honduras to himself publicly condemn killings of human rights defenders, journalists, and people in the public justice sector. She argued that such condemnation by the president at the highest level, that he would not tolerate such behaviour, would be important in combatting that culture of impunity.

Are you aware of statements by President Hernández that condemn the killings of Honduran human rights defenders, journalists, and public sector justice workers?

1:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

Rick Craig

I'm trying to think. I really don't know. I'm not aware. I know there have been what we would call certain major cases, the emblematic cases. There have been efforts on the part of the government to say that this is going to be investigated rigorously and they have actually put extra resources in. But whether or not he has come out and said that, I don't know.

I think it would be a good thing. I think they need to say that many times.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you, Mr. Craig.

1:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you, Professor.

We go now to Mr. Sweet.

1:50 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Mr. Craig, you are doing angels' work in the midst of a very troubling situation there in Honduras, so thank you very much for the good work you are doing.

To follow on Professor Cotler's question with regard to statements that are made in support of your work, you did mention the need for political champions. Are you seeing an emergence of some of those in Honduras?

1:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

Rick Craig

There are two levels of champions. There are the political level of champions or the leadership champions. When I look at what that means, the question is, if we meet with the current attorney general and we ask if they are prepared to do this and they say, “Yes, this make sense”, and they are willing to put the resources in, to me that represents that they are doing what they need to do.

Whether they're doing it with the kind of vigour.... The champion I actually have the most respect for is from Guatemala, Claudia Paz y Paz, who is quite famous. She really said to the world that they were going to move forward at an incredible pace. It's interesting, because when I looked within her institution, just the voice she had gave such a positive impact to the will.

I haven't seen that yet in Honduras. It would be nice if we could see that in Honduras. I think that would be fantastic.

We do have champions at the operational level. There are people who, I think, have gone very far beyond what you could expect of them and who are just committed. That's where we derive our hope from.

That being said, the operational level needs the political champions. I think they need to be encouraged to be stronger. I really do.

I don't know if that is answering you well enough.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Yes, it is. I don't want to pre-empt anything the chair might say, but perhaps you could pass along our commendations from our committee to those people who are risking their lives every day to try to bring justice and hope to the population. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a prosecuting attorney in Honduras under this situation. We greatly appreciate them.

I listened very closely to your testimony and I may have missed it, so forgive me if this question is repetitious. You talked a lot about training with regard to investigations and training with regard to prosecutorial expertise. Are there other police forces, other nations that have police personnel on the ground that are helping with the training?

1:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

Rick Craig

Yes. It changes, but the Americans have been involved. So the Americans are involved. There are programs of support through USAID, and they have other programs of support. They have programs of support around dealing with drugs through the DEA. So the Americans have a presence and are involved.

In terms of this particular piece, we've tended to be more the central player, but the Americans have been supporting that. There was in the past, and I don't know where it's at right now, some support and cooperation by Spain. The Spanish have always been interested, but of course there have been economic problems in Spain and their budgets were cut very heavily, so in the last few years we haven't been bumping into them and talking to them.

There is a committee that meets and talks about international aid, and we attend those meetings. By and large, there aren't a lot of players.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

You talked about a cultural box. I take it you meant a little bit like paradigm paralysis from folks.

Other than that, is there generally a positive attitude toward change? You were talking about the archaic system that you're dealing with and trying to bring them into the 21st century. Is there generally a positive attitude toward that change, so that they have the intestinal fortitude to fight that cultural box?

1:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

Rick Craig

I've always drawn a lot of comfort from the fact that you have within these systems people who worked under the old system and a lot of new people, a lot of young people. You find as you get into these positions that most of these investigators will be young people. They'll probably be people in their 20s.

We find with them that they're people who care about their society. Everybody cares about their society. They care deeply. They don't like what they're seeing, and they're very committed. We've just found an enormous amount of openness.

We don't ever impose anything. That's not right. It's not our society. What we try to do is talk about what makes sense in the context of their culture and their system. We're trying to point out the issues and ask how we are going to deal with them. We try to bring expertise or best practices to the table and suggest adapting them.

What we do find is just enormous enthusiasm. The problem, of course, that we're running into is that there are only so many resources, and that's where we tend to get limited, right?

Unfortunately, I always say there are three dynamics going on. There are not a lot of resources. We're within a society that has violence levels that are astronomical by our understanding. The third element is that we're working with a still evolving new justice system that has not consolidated. If you put all three of those pieces together, you have quite a challenge.

Some of it's not of their making. The issues around transnational crime really are a result of what has been happening in Mexico pushing down into Guatemala, and changing Honduras. They are part of moments of history. At the same time, they're coping.

You can imagine our case if we were dealing with 45 times the violence, and that's just murder. We focus on murder because that's the gravest human rights violation, but the extortions are astronomical and they affect everybody. They have to be dealt with. The reason we do this work is that we actually are inspired by the people.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Let's go to Mr. Benskin, who will be our last questioner.

November 27th, 2014 / 2 p.m.

NDP

Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

There were moments in your testimony when I felt rather discouraged for you, but from many of your responses I think we all picked up on the hope that you mentioned and the will that you seem to have in climbing this mountain. I congratulate you for that.

We started off talking about the technical aspects of what's going on to help bring about change in Guatemala, the training of investigators and so forth. It seems the discussion has consolidated into a dialogue that uses “hope”, “context”, “mindset”, and words of this nature that are rather intangible in and of themselves.

I guess I'm following up on Professor Cotler's question. What is being done or what can be done, and where do you think it needs to come from to begin to encourage people like President Hernández and other political leaders in Honduras to really shout from the rooftops that we need to make this change, to begin to change that cultural mindset, to begin to create a sense of hope in the people of Honduras to actually put these technical skills that are coming their way into practice with a mind of using evidence to bring about convictions of the right person?

2 p.m.

Executive Director, Justice Education Society of BC

Rick Craig

It's interesting. I've been doing this work for quite a while, and what you find when you do this kind of work is that we're not aware of our own cultural context a lot of the time, and we just assume things, or we understand things, or we see things in a certain way. In a lot of countries in the world where we talk about human rights, they view it from a different perspective because they've lived a different life. When you're dealing with the justice system, part of what we need to do is to see things flourish. They need to demonstrate that they work. They have to be functional, and they have to start to address the problems, because that's where the commitment comes from.

Around the question of investigation, we have to make sure that a model is created that will work, that will deliver the results. Then they can have hope in the model, and the hope will inspire the passion and the resources, and they'll replicate it. We believe that is the only way to do this work.

Part of what we find is that when you talk to people and you talk the terms, they don't understand the terms the way I understand the terms. What the term means is different. It's only in the process of doing that we can start to really grapple with those differences, and that's what we try to do. We have to be culturally clear and culturally relevant if it's going to work. To me, that's a major piece of this. I think most of those governments in those regions understand that security is probably the number one preoccupation of their populations. They know that. They hear that. They live it. They live behind these barriers; they're closed in. Everybody has guards. It's not a healthy society. They're fearful for their kids. The experience for them is real.

What we have to do is help them to say, “Okay, this is overwhelming.” It's going to have to play on a number of levels. They have to deal with the narco problem. They have to deal with the gang problem. They also have to deal with the functionality problem. I find generally that the desire is there, but a lot of the time it's as if when we go to them, we're going to them with an idea that has not been part of their previous thinking. Then we have to try to work with them to say why this fits, why it's relevant, even to the extent of things like cross-examination. In a lot of these countries, what we would understand as cross-examination doesn't exist. It comes out of the human rights history, because the old idea of putting a victim on the stand, and the inquisidora model, and then really testing them, or testing other witnesses, is almost a foreign concept. It comes out of our culture, our history, our legal system that's evolved over 500 years. As they move in this direction, we have to work with them on that. I think we can, and I think it's happening, but at the end of the day it has to deliver the results. If it does, I think it will move forward.

I think political will is critical. They have to say, “Listen, this is number one. We're going to do everything in our power”, and they have to make more resources available.

I don't mean to be too complicated in my responses. I hope that's okay.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

No, that was fine.

I had a question in my head, but it's gone now, so I'm going to cede the rest of the probably 30 seconds that I have.