Evidence of meeting #47 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski  International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

I now call this meeting to order.

Today is December 2, 2014, and this is the 47th meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. The meeting will be televised.

We continue our hearings into the aftermath of the Rwanda crisis at 20 years' distance.

Joining us from Kigali in Rwanda today is Glenda Dubienski, who's the international director of operations for HOPEthiopia, Rwanda division.

Thank you very much for joining us today. I'm sure the clerk has already discussed the presentation. Once you are finished with your presentation we'll go to questions from the various members, and the whole thing should last about an hour.

Thank you very much. Please begin.

1:05 p.m.

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

Thank you.

Thank you for the invitation to address this committee, to offer witness to the Rwandan crisis, now 20 years post-genocide against the Tutsis.

My name is Glenda Dubienski. I'm a Canadian and a resident of Rwanda. Today I'm speaking on behalf of myself, but for the purpose of adding context, I'm a counsellor by profession, co-founder of HOPEthiopia, and the vision holder and director of HOPEthiopia, Rwanda. I will be sharing from my five-year experience as one working to help empower Rwandese youth and young adults, particularly those who were orphaned in the 1994 genocide.

The scope of my involvement includes facilitating wraparound support of both males and females 18 to 35 years of age, defined by Rwandans as youth and young adults, for the purpose of assisting them towards self-reliance. Given the complexities of my obvious ignorance of Rwandan culture, it became apparent at the onset of my work that partnering with local Rwandan-founded NGOs was essential. Today I work with and help support several such NGOs, whose great work was threatened due to lack of resources.

Considering the work I did with Congolese refugees a couple of years ago, I recognize there are some similarities between Rwandan and eastern Congo cultures. I hope my witness will shed light not only on Rwanda's recovery from crisis but also on how you might proceed in assisting the DRC recover.

I apologize in advance for using terminology related to once-defined people groups that are no longer politically correct. These terms were used during the 1994 crisis, and their usage allows for easier explanation. Thank you.

The issue of gender equality is of primary importance to the Rwandan government. To refresh your memories, Rwanda's Vision 2020, which was drafted 14 years ago, set its eye on achieving the following five pillars: good governance and a capable state; human resource development and a knowledge-based economy; a private-sector-led economy; infrastructure development; productive and market-oriented agriculture.

But critical to our discussion is that the number one crosscutting factor identified within that document is gender equality. This posture is evident in the fact that of 80 seats in Parliament, women occupy 51, which is 64% of the seats. I believe that such representation by women and for women has made an obvious impact on the issue that we are discussing today, because women now have a strong and audible voice in this nation.

Tangible evidence of the belief that victimized women now have a voice is the fact that Rwanda has committed to construct the first gender-based violence care facility in east Africa at the Rwanda Military Hospital, under the management of the clinical psychology department. Treatment there will include DNA testing for the purpose of identifying the perpetrator and seeking justice for the victim.

Given Rwanda's stance on women who are and were victims of rape and sexual violence, women feel justified in coming forward with their testimonies and looking for help to recover. Public awareness campaigns have also made this topic more acceptable to discuss.

Though Rwanda is but a developing nation, she is earnestly trying to address the issue of gender-based violence. However, with only six psychiatrists, one or two psychiatric nurses or psychologists per district, and only one hospital with a department of clinical psychology, the resources are not enough to handle the psychiatric and psychological needs of the nation.

Furthermore, as my colleagues at the Rwanda Military Hospital frequently remind me, clinical psychology is a very new field in Rwanda. The interventions used to help victims are sometimes superficial, often treating the behaviour rather than the root cause. Hence, traumatized individuals live with constant fear, antisocial behaviours, promiscuity, aggression, and irritability.

Rwanda has welcomed outside help to train both professional and lay counsellors in alternative interventions, which is how I originally connected with the nation, but there is still more need.

My experience with survivors of rape and sexual violence, and that of others who work in the same field, reveals that the determinants of recovery for Rwandan victims of rape and sexual violence during the Rwanda crisis include the severity of the trauma suffered, which is often related to whether the victim was individually raped; gang-raped; raped with objects, such as sharpened sticks or gun barrels; held in sexual slavery; or sexually mutilated. The severity of the trauma is also related to whether the victim witnessed the torture and/or killings of close relatives prior to the rape.

Other determinants are the availability of social networks for the victims, which includes family, church, and immediate community; the personality of the victims, including resilience, tenacity, self-confidence, etc.; and the spirituality of the victims, as faith plays a huge role in Rwandan life. Knowledge of a divine meaning or a bigger purpose for their life, or knowledge of a divine presence, has an impact.

A woman who conceived a child through rape during the genocide is most likely orphaned and severely traumatized by watching her family die before her eyes. She is an outcast, a woman tarnished by the seed of genocidaires. As a Tutsi carrying a Hutu child, she was rejected by both groups. If her church was politically involved in supporting Hutu extremists, she lost that aspect of support, as well as faith in her denomination and/or God. She has been stripped of all support networks.

Women who do not find support and have lived 20 years with the memories, disease, and scars of rape and sexual violence still require intensive care. They suffer from mental illnesses ranging from depression to the utterly debilitating dissociative disorder. Others have become addicts as they tried to numb their pain with drugs and alcohol, while many have succumbed to the thought that they are valued only for one thing and have turned to prostitution.

In Rwandan culture, there is a reluctance to express one's true and deepest thoughts and feelings outside the family. Family is number one in Rwanda. The majority of genocide rape survivors lost their families, which leaves the question, whom do they turn to? Neighbours killed neighbours, and the global community turned its back on Rwanda during that crisis. Suspicion and distrust run thick and deep.

Recovery requires the development of trusting relationships, and this takes time and intentionality. Women have found healing with others who understand their pain, those who empathize and those who have suffered in the same manner. Facilitating such relationships and accompanying these women is hugely restorative. It is within this context that survivors frequently share that this is how and where they found family.

Experience indicates that much of the development of children of rape in Rwanda is determined by the acceptance by the mother and the attachment to her. If the mother can accept and bond effectively with the child, there is a greater likelihood the child will develop securely and become a responsible, contributing citizen. However, more often than not, the mother did not accept the child, and when abortion attempts failed, the mother either committed or attempted infanticide, deserted the child, or kept the child.

The kept child, so often resembling its father, the perpetrator of rape, was hated and suffered the wrath that the mother had for the rapist. Feeling unwanted and unloved, the surviving children of rape suffer from serious identity issues. Abandoned by their mothers and not knowing their fathers, they often turn to drugs and alcohol and exhibit rebellious behaviour.

Since 2010, the Rwandan government has responded by providing rehabilitation from drug and alcohol addiction, as well as vocational skills training, to young men aged 18 to 35. Some of these rehabilitated men are children of rape abandoned by their mothers, who were incapable of caring for them. Forced to live on the streets, they turned to substance abuse. The government has plans to open another such facility, for young women, in the coming year.

I work with some of these young men and women, children of rape, to provide transitional housing, medical care, further education, and entrepreneurial cooperative establishment, and to advocate for them when necessary. To be honest, these are only the basics that good-enough parenting would provide, and this is not lost on these young men and women. In their testimonies of transformation, they always share that they have found home and family. Children, no matter what age, need a secure attachment to a safe and reliable person.

Again, home and family make the difference in such a child's ability to recover from the brokenness of rejection.

In conclusion, I would like to say that early holistic and culturally contextualized interventions for sexual violence victims, preferably by nationals, and awareness campaigns that address the injustices of sexual violence both inside and outside the context of war, are obviously necessary to put an end to and recover from such injustices. But I can't stress enough that successful stories of recovery are found in those who have received long-term compassionate care. Beneficiaries of such attentive care are the first to testify to this. Through accompaniment by another with an empathetic ear, and finding community in those who understand, many have found healing, or at least enough resolution of trauma to move forward.

Finally, to paraphrase, a Canadian hero, the general of UNAMIR, and now a senator, Roméo Dallaire, in an address to a Calgary audience in January of this year: Rwanda is an experiment of healing; no other nation has shown such recovery from such a crisis.

Like the noted author and journalist, Jean Hatzfeld, I believe that we have much to learn from Rwandans about reconciliation and healing from war wounds, as well as prevention of sexual violence. I want to encourage you in your efforts to learn from Rwanda's experience.

Thank you.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Based on the fact that we still have three-quarters of an hour, we have time for six-minute question and answer rounds.

Will we be starting with you, Mr. Sweet?

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you very much for your testimony.

You mentioned a lot of things with regard to the very nominal number of psychiatrists, psychologists, and nurses who are available in each district, hence your mission to go there. Also taking into mind the fact that family is so important in the Rwandan culture, as far as sharing your pain and being able to work through it, has there been an effort to develop networks of those who, for lack of better words—let's pick on the faith issue, because you did bring it up—have had a progression in healing that was above average, for them to partner with others so there's a mutual healing and a social construct of what would be the best thing next to a family?

1:15 p.m.

International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski

Yes. I think probably the best way to respond to that would be to share that several groups of women have been brought together because of their circumstances, whether it be their inability to function, their psychological disorder, poverty even. These factors have brought women together into groups, and having come together, a natural family has been produced, in the sense that they've had an opportunity to share their experiences. It may start small, but as they begin to get to know each other and share a little at a time, the door opens to share more and more, which then allows them to have a very safe place in which to just be. In this condition, they really, truly, do come to be family.

I don't know how much more I can say about the family piece. Rwandans are very closed off to anyone outside the family. I will give you an example. One of our graduating classes of seamstresses, many of whom were victims of rape during the genocide, said they came to our centre for counselling. They were completely debilitated, unable to function, and somebody recommended they come to the centre. Realizing they needed more than just the counselling, they needed somebody to get them out of their poverty, we set up a sewing school. Sitting around the circle and quilting, if you can imagine, they started to share their stories. Upon graduation, the valedictorian of the first class shared that she came for counselling, learned a trade, but most importantly gained a family. She's a fully capable, functioning mother, who has been able to accept her child who was conceived through rape, and that has all come through this process.

Does that answer your question?

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Thank you. It gives us some encouragement because of the nature of what the Rwandans went through. We had some very graphic testimony of the painful rapes that happened. You went through some graphic detail as well. It's good to hear some positive stories of healing.

I think you said in your remarks that it was five years that you served there. You mentioned reconciliation. One of the things I'm perceiving from the testimony we've heard is that not only does there have to be reconciliation with the perpetrators, but also a kind of reconciliation in the sense of the cultural stigmatization that happens when someone who was innocent is victimized and has a product of that violent rape, their child. Did you see a progression? I can imagine cultural change happens painfully slowly, but did you see a progression in the societal norms of a change in the attitude towards these women who were victimized and have a child now? Is that changing?

1:20 p.m.

International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski

Yes, I believe it is changing because there has been a strong effort to educate. Some people are more understanding of the situation of women who suffered from rape during the genocide. I think the strongest testimony comes from the healing of these women and the confidence they achieve through that healing that allows them to stand up and say, “This is truth; let me share it with you”. There's a change. People are more willing to listen.

I can tell you women who come to the centre for the first time cannot even look you in the eye, but when they leave to start their businesses they're standing tall. People will attend to them. People will listen.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

The vocational opportunities that they're offered go far beyond anything economic. It really goes to their psychosocial capabilities of healing.

1:20 p.m.

International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski

Absolutely. Within those communities of women, as they're being trained vocationally, their children also connect. They end up looking after each others' children, children end up looking after each others' mothers, and there becomes a real sense of community.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Chair.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Mr. Marston, please.

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

This is a topic that is very difficult for people who've never lived close to anything like it. Listening to your comments...I was raised in New Brunswick and you can't see me to realize I'm as old as I am, but I can remember community quilting bees where the ladies of the community came together. As a little boy who hid under the blanket while they were making it, I heard some interesting conversations. They would address problems like the husbands who abused them, or husbands who drank, or whatever. We also had first nations close to us who would have a circle and pass a feather. In my time in the labour movement in the seventies we started to confront sexual harassment, harassment policies, and things like that. We used to sit down in a circle and pass a pen. In all those instances you had something that gave you visible permission to speak, so hearing this is interesting.

Recently we had an anniversary of this horrendous set of events in Canada and I heard speakers...survivors. Are you aware of any programs or support for these victims in Canada?

1:25 p.m.

International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski

That is a very good question. I am from Calgary, Alberta, and we do have an active Rwandan community, which has also welcomed a lot of Burundians as well. Other than that community itself I am not aware of other groups within Canada that can provide such assistance.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

We did a study recently on rape and sexual assault as weapons of war. It's far broader than just the community you happen to be in at the present time, so the victim base, because of the high level of immigration into Canada, is probably more extensive than what we even know.

I'd like to go a little further. How would you compare the needs of surviving children to the needs of surviving mothers? There are two different sets of events here. The surviving mother, of course, has had all of the horrific events directed at her, yet the child has what I would refer to as an echo of those events in their lives. How do you compare their needs?

1:25 p.m.

International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski

Oh, my goodness. The needs are vastly different, yet very similar, too. The woman herself, of course, has experienced the trauma. She is suffering from some form of post-traumatic stress disorder and then often literally slips out of reality and will fall into dissociative disorder, if she has been unable to get any resolution to trauma. These women are quite incapable of functioning at that level. As I mentioned, some of these women do require intensive care. We're debating about whether or not we should actually, if we could, build a facility specifically for these women because it seems very difficult.

For the children, I believe there is greater hope in the sense that there can be solid relationships that would really help to build these young people up and break any generational events afterwards.

The children, to be quite honest, are quite eager to connect with someone who really cares, someone who will have an ear. They have been living with a mother who most likely has been incapable of listening to them or of meeting their basic needs. If someone comes alongside these young people and provides that kind of care, I think there are tremendous possibilities for them. We've seen it as well. I'm saying “I think”, yet I have seen it. I've seen this happen, and by plugging women into support groups, they've been able to find support as well, but we've seen far faster success working with the children.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

One of the things I don't know whether you'd be able to comment on at all is the experience of the people who were displaced and were in refugee camps or in east and central African countries where they moved to. What was their experience? Are you aware of that?

1:25 p.m.

International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski

Their experience prior to...?

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Following the events, people left the country. Many went to countries close by. How were they treated? What was the end result? Did many return to Rwanda?

1:30 p.m.

International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski

There is a huge movement of diaspora groups back into Rwanda. There are a lot of people who have been returning.

If you're wondering about Congolese refugees, there were a lot who came two years ago, and there were a lot who were speaking Kinyarwanda, so I suspect that many of them were actually of Rwandese descent.

As far as those who have come back to stay goes, there is a huge movement back into the country.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Ms. Grewal, please.

December 2nd, 2014 / 1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Dubienski, for your time.

In one of the news updates on the HOPEthiopia website it talks about sponsoring 20 Rwandan women and giving them counselling services.

Can you please elaborate on how effective this has been for these women, and what is the next selection process for choosing which women to care for and in which way?

1:30 p.m.

International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski

We have had five graduating classes from our sewing school in conjunction with another local NGO called the Tubahumurize Association, which means “let us console them”.

We have a Rwandese counsellor who works with the women every day. She's a full-time counsellor. The women who we take in are all women who have not graduated from high school. All of them have no other form of support. Half of our last graduating class were women who had left the sex trade. The majority of those women had children as a product of rape. As far as the success of the program goes, we also teach them English language because that is now a recognized national language in Rwanda. We also teach them basic literacy skills such as math and language.

As far as where they are at today, this last graduating class, which was probably the most complex because the majority of them had suffered from severe sexual violence, have also started their own businesses. They are all successful. As I shared with them at their graduation, they really did look taller. They stood taller. They had confidence. I have actually seen them interacting with others, unbeknownst to them, and seen them stand up for not just themselves but for their neighbours. These women are very capable. As for the selection process, the women are referred to us by the social affairs department of the district in which we're registered. The vice-mayor herself and I actually walk the streets sometimes and connect with young women who have turned to prostitution and suggest possibly joining the school. We have a wide range, all between the ages of 18 and 35.

As a matter of fact, in our last intake, which was just a month ago, we have one new woman who is 34 years of age, and she has a child who was conceived in rape during the genocide. She is in dire need of help. Even in a month I've seen a difference in her.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

When looking at children born of rape and sexual violence in Rwanda, what do you think the practical next step is for improving their quality of life today? Is it access to education, job training, health care, or something else? What is the international community doing to help in these areas?

1:30 p.m.

International Director of Operations, Rwanda, HOPEthiopia

Glenda Pisko-Dubienski

I think you've hit all of the major issues.

Absolutely, education is a priority. Education is free in this nation but there are school fees that still need to be paid, so it's still inaccessible to many. Health care is also a huge need for these individuals. Partly, these children who were children of rape are often not cared for very well and they have a lot of medical issues. Some are related to abuse and others are related to infections that might be picked up from the conditions in which they live. Malaria is always a big issue here.

I can't stress enough the psychological and psychiatric support. It really is essential to be able to help them resolve the trauma they have experienced and the trauma that their mother has experienced and passed on to them.

As far as the international community is concerned, there are 15 Canadians who were available for Thanksgiving dinner here, just to give you an idea of the number of individuals who feel a call to work in this nation. There's not enough help. Even to this day Rwanda looks like it's in very fine shape, but for the people it's just under the surface.