Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 9th, 2014

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Okay—

[Alexander Main]

I'm not aware, I'm afraid, of what sort of security assistance Canada is providing.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned earlier when we were talking about free trade that the previous free trade agreement over the last 10 years hasn't made much difference, in fact it's gotten worse. Then you said that Canada and the United States have a lot of trade with Honduras and that this can be used as a very strong point in negotiating with them. That's my point with the Canada-Honduras free trade agreement, that you're better to be working on the inside and have some dialogue at least of some sort to at least maybe bring forth some of these horrendous problems with human rights in Honduras.

I also sit on the foreign affairs committee. We were talking this morning about Syria and Iraq, and we were talking about communication, about all the various parties that are involved in that terrible situation and how there can be dialogue between them.

So at least with the free trade agreement there's been some dialogue, do you not agree?

[Alexander Main]

There certainly has been dialogue. I'm not sure whether it's been focused on the human rights situation much, and that's certainly what I would encourage. Also, I think it's perhaps too late at this point—you'll know better than I do—but before opening up the floodgates of free trade, it's precisely before you do so, before you further a free trade agreement, that you would have more leverage in dialogue with the government to see the real enforcement of measures that would protect these at-risk groups and that would further human rights in the country. Once the free trade agreement is in vigour, I think there you in fact have much less leverage. That's how I would see it at least.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schellenberger.

Mr. Cotler, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd also like to join in welcoming you to our subcommittee, Mr. Main. I thought your testimony was very relevant.

As you may know, Henri-Paul Normandin, the director general of the Latin American and Caribbean bureau in our department of external affairs, testified before us on November 6. He made a statement to the effect that, “Reports of human rights defenders, journalists, and justice sector workers being targeted for intimidation and violence, including murder, continue.”

It's a statement that dovetailed with your testimony today.

He went on to say, and I quote, “the political situation in Honduras is more stable than it has been for several years.” He also indicated, “The new administration has also adopted a series of measures to improve security that appear to be leading to positive results.”

He identified nine reforms in that regard of which I will only excerpt three and ask if you might reply to those. First, in the matter of combatting impunity, he said that there had been reforms to the penal code increasing the penalty for the murder of judicial officials to life imprisonment, and the penalty for threatening government officials in the exercise of their duty to 20 years imprisonment.

A second one was the adoption of a national human rights policy and action plan, and a third was a willingness on the part of the government to work with multilateral human rights institutions, including by extending an invitation to the office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights to open an office in the capital of Honduras.

I'm wondering if you can comment on those particular reforms that he indicated had been undertaken by the Hernandez government, and whether you feel there have been these positive results that the director general stated in his testimony to us, though he acknowledged that it will take time to see if they are concretely fulfilled.

[Alexander Main]

Thank you, sir.

Regarding the reforms to the penal code, I think there's generally consensus within the human rights community, certainly in Honduras, that the changes are quite regressive in nature. Longer sentencing and harsher sentences aren't considered the best way of dealing with crime. In any regard, the stronger sentencing could be seen as perhaps dissuasive. I don't see how that would be the case when you still have a very high level of impunity. Changing the penal code in this way will have no effect on impunity. It doesn't change the procedures and it doesn't provide any particular additional motivation to investigators from the Public Ministry of Honduras or to the police to apprehend and judicially process criminals. I don't see how there can be really any change in that regard.

In terms of the adoption of an action plan, I think I responded to that point earlier. Where, in fact, this legislation has not yet been approved, it could well be approved very soon. But there's a great deal of concern again within the human rights community in Honduras over the content of that legislation since this new draft that is being debated within the Honduran congress has not actually been seen by them. They have not been consulted, although they were consulted very early on in the drafting process.

Finally, regarding the invitation to the UN, that, I would say, is certainly a positive sort of gesture. We'll see whether the government is actually prepared to follow through on that. It's been a demand for some years of human rights groups in Honduras to have a multilateral presence to support efforts to both reform the police and judiciary, and also to investigate and apprehend crimes that go even into corruption and organized crime, a body similar perhaps to the CICIG in Guatemala, which has had a fairly good record. Even if impunity and the rate of violent crime still remain very high in Guatemala, it is considered to be a positive step forward.

We'll just have to see whether the Honduran government actually follows through with its positive rhetoric in this regard.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I realize that you did make reference to the legislation that is being considered. You indicated, in fact, that it was at third reading. Monsieur Henri-Paul Normandin did refer to that separately, however, as a sort of separate reform from the one that I indicated he also referenced, namely adoption of a national human rights policy and action plan. Now it may be that they are one and the same, but in his testimony he dealt with them separately.

[Alexander Main]

I can also go back to my notes and my contacts and verify. I do believe, though, that the action plan, which I think was first discussed back in 2012, under the previous administration of Porfirio Lobo, is the one that was meant to translate into legislation. Perhaps it's a component of the action plan, and I've misunderstood. That's possible. I will go back and check and would be happy to get back to you on that.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

One last question, in testimony before the subcommittee, Esther Major, from Amnesty International, said that it was important for the President of Honduras to publicly condemn killings of human rights defenders—journalists, lawyers and the like—and that condemnation by the president at the highest level that he would not tolerate such behaviour could have a salutary effect.

Are you aware of any statements by President Hernandez condemning killings of Honduran human rights defenders, justice sector workers, journalists, and the like?

[Alexander Main]

No, not at all. In fact, there have been statements from government officials that go in the other direction, particularly in the wake of the publication of the preliminary findings of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. Following their visit at the beginning of December, you had at least one military official who criticized their findings and also rejected their concerns over the increasing militarization that's occurring in Honduras.

Beyond the rhetoric, or absence of rhetoric from the government, certainly in terms of their actions, it's very worrying to see that precautionary measures that have been granted to individuals believed to be threatened with attacks and human rights abuses by the Inter-American Commission—and many have been granted since the 2009 coup—on the whole are not being implemented. You have various witness accounts from the grantees indicating that the national police of Honduras is often completely unaware of the precautionary measures and unaware of what to do to try to protect these individuals.

So these measures are not being implemented at a time when attacks against human rights defenders are increasing.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Professor Cotler.

Is it Mr. Sweet this time? All right, go ahead.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to say thank you to the witness for sharing his expertise with us.

I want to go back to Mr. Cotler's line of questioning in regard to whether or not there was any condemnation from the administration. I think your phrase was “quite the opposite”.

I don't know if condemning an outside report is the opposite, but have there actually been statements by this administration publicly in regard to human rights defenders or journalists or even some of the communities at higher risk—the LGBTQ communities—in regard to any kind of loose support for this impunity, these killings?

[Alexander Main]

I'm, again, not aware under the administration of President Orlando Hernandez of statements that have been made to this effect. If they have been made they have not been very well-publicized, and certainly human rights groups have not signalled to me or other partners in the U.S. that the government has made any really positive signals.

Again, I think...quite the contrary. To give another example, that of a colonel in the Bajo Aguan region, who was in charge of forces there, who made threats towards journalists and human rights defenders. That happened as recently as last December in a very public way. He did so on television. He accused one human rights defender from the organization Rights Action, which is involved in helping campesino groups present their cases, their claims to land, before the courts in Honduras. She was accused of destabilization and she was also accused of having ties to al-Qaeda. This was done very publicly in a part of Honduras where there are frequent assassinations of human rights defenders and others. So it was very dangerous behaviour and this human rights defender returned to the United States fairly quickly after these remarks were made. These remarks were, of course, criticized by human rights defenders throughout Honduras.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Just to be clear on our timeline, these specific remarks were actually before the Hernandez government was....

[Alexander Main]

This is true. I've been looking at the last 12 months and this occurred in December of last year.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay.

In regard to your comments of the military police being used more and more for routine policing, I'm curious about all of these moves that you're mentioning. Have you been aware of how the government is justifying these moves? Are they using the drug trade to justify to the general public why the militarization of the police continues?

How is this becoming palatable for the general public to endure for this long?

[Alexander Main]

I'm not sure that it is palatable to the general public. In terms of the justification, there is a section of the public, and certainly a good part of the conservative base of the National Party of Honduras, which saw in a positive light the creation of the new military police force. Again, this became a central theme of Orlando Hernandez' campaign and I think was used to sort of mobilize this base.

So this police force has grown in recent months. Another 1,000 individuals are now part of the force so I think it's 2,000 strong. It will eventually reach 5,000 if the government follows through with its plans.

The justification is that there is a great deal of crime. The best way to deal with it is to have a very tough response, in Spanish they say mano dura, a “strong hand” to deal with this. What stronger hand is there than the military with their military tactics and weaponry?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I just have one question I want to squeeze in here.

You had mentioned, in regard to the police and judiciary, those who had failed the trustworthiness examinations, for lack of better words, that they were dismissing them. You implied that it was quite the contrary, that those law enforcement agents, as well as some of the judiciary, were let go because they were trustworthy and they weren't in compliance with what you feel was the government's impunity.

Am I assuming too much? Is that what you were saying?

[Alexander Main]

That's correct.

Certainly, there have been officials who have been dismissed because of failing to pass trustworthiness tests, but there have also been others who have been maintained. Again, it has been reported by human rights groups that some senior officials who have been removed because of alleged criminal activity have been replaced by others who also have allegations of criminal activity and involvement in human rights abuses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Benskin.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you and welcome.

Your testimony is clearly beneficial and enlightening. I will be following along the same lines as my colleagues.

The juxtaposition of one of the elements that was apparently being put into place by the Hernandez government, for example, was the establishment of a technical agency for crime investigation within the prosecutor's office, to investigate high-profile cases, and to improve monitoring of the judiciary and police. This is one of the things, it was said, that was being put in place.

With your testimony, you're saying that the ongoing militarization of the country.... It seems to me they are at odds with each other in terms of the civilian execution and prosecution, and investigation of crimes, and the mano dura, as you put it, approach of the military. It seems to be something that is supported by the government.

Would you care to comment on that?

[Alexander Main]

Again, this mano dura, which involves more military on the streets of Honduras, which involves the creation of this new sort of hybrid military police force, and involves an increasing amount of extrajudicial killings, is seen as a big step backward.

Certainly, these killings have not been investigated. There may be greater efforts on the technical front to have improved methods of investigation and so on, but the actual investigations are on the whole not occurring. That's the real problem.

This lack of will, which is certainly institutional, is also within the police and the judiciary. One has to ask whether this lack of will is also at the executive level of government, given the lack of concrete action to address these problems.