Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Jan. 29th, 2015

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Order, please.

Today is January 29, 2015, and this is the 52th meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. This meeting is televised.

We are continuing the study on the human rights situation in North Korea that we have been doing over a number of meetings scattered over the last couple of years.

We have today two witnesses to whom I will shortly be turning over the floor. Cheolhyeon Jang is one of the witnesses. He is appearing on his own behalf as an individual. Kyung Bok Lee, who is the president of the Council for Human Rights in North Korea, is our other witness.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

On a point, we shouldn't be having photography while we're gavelled in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You're quite right.

Mr. Sweet has pointed out that now that we're in session all photography must cease.

Thank you for that, Mr. Sweet.

We're going to turn the floor over to our witnesses.

To the witnesses, I'll just say that you're free to divide your time between you as you see fit. When your testimony is completed, we will go to questions from the members of the committee. The length of each round of questions and answers will be determined by how much time is left in our hour, divided by the six members of Parliament who will be asking questions.

Pplease feel free to begin your witness testimony.

[Cheolhyeon Jang, As an Individual]

Bonjour.

First of all, in 2004 I escaped from North Korea. Before I escaped from North Korea, I was in the United Front Department of the central party of North Korea.

The UFD is basically a counter-intelligence operation of the North Korean government. We look at what we're going to do in our operations and intelligence against South Korea. I was responsible for psychological warfare in that department. When I was there, what I mostly did was look at South Korean poetic styles and then write poetry as someone in South Korea would write poetry. I would put North Korean ideologies into this poetry so that South Koreans would be confused and think that it was a South Korean who was praising North Korea. Through this we tried to get both South Koreans and North Koreans to think that Kim Jong-il and Kim Il Sung were the only road to unification.

Now, North Korea treats everything like this. They want everyone in the world to idolize Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong-il as gods. This is the very central point of their propaganda. This kind of propaganda is being used to brainwash North Korean residents. Through all the domestic outlets in North Korea, this propaganda is used to brainwash all of their residents into thinking that the Kim dynasty people are gods.

Today what I want to tell you is that when you look at human rights in North Korea, you mostly focus on the political labour camps there. But if you look at North Korea from a more accurate perspective, the labour camps themselves might be prisons, but society as a whole is also a prison. Every rule in the labour camps is also reflected outside those camps in North Korean society. It's a physical dictatorship. The North Korean government engages in both physical control and mind control. North Korean residents' bodies and minds are completely controlled by the authorities. Like the Gestapo of the Nazis, they go out and hunt people down for their thoughts that might be different from what is prescribed, and they run the labour camps. But North Koreans are worse than the Nazis. The Nazis had labour camps that were directed at people who were not of their nation. North Koreans are putting their own people into these labour camps and under the hardships there.

I'd like to talk a little bit about the mind control aspect of North Korea. Along with physical oppression, North Korea uses mind control to control the minds and hearts of people so that they will deify their leader. All of this is done through propaganda. For mind control, all of the art and literature in North Korea is controlled by the authorities. There is a council that reviews every single piece of art that is released. If that council does not approve, you cannot let a single song out into the public in North Korea.

Everything starts from control of language in North Korea. We have built Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong-il, and Kim Jong-un into a cult. Specific language is used when we are talking about the leaders. By controlling the language first, North Korean authorities are brainwashing the North Korean residents and gaining control over them, in both mind and body.

If we look at the slogans that are forced upon North Korean residents, they talk about how you're only a piece of meat if you don't have your ideologies straight. Basically, a political life is what they're talking about, which means loyalty to the leader. If you don't have loyalty to the leader, then you're not a real human, you're just a piece of meat. That's what that slogan is saying.

You probably have heard of the many public executions that North Korea is carrying out. They're doing this because they want loyalty to their leader, loyalty to the party. If someone no longer has that loyalty, then they're not human.

In this regard, I would like to give you an example of something that I myself experienced. In the United Front Department division that I worked for, one person who also worked there was sent to a labour camp. We went to the home of my colleague to help him pack up as he prepared to go to the labour camp. But you see, this too was about control and brainwashing, a part of life in the organization of the party. What I saw happen at the home of my colleague surprised me. Once he was all packed and ready to move, some North Korean security people came and asked the wife, “Are you going to follow your husband to the labour camp or are you going to follow the party?” The wife was forced to say that she would follow the party. What else could she do? If she said she would follow her husband, then she too would be sent to a political labour camp. The authorities were forcing her to choose on the spot, right then, loyalty to the party or to her husband.

But as soon as she chose, the North Korean security authorities took her infant child away from her. Why? Because North Korea has punishment by association. That baby was this guy's son: he was going to the labour camp with his dad. So the mom lost her baby even though she chose the party, and we really could do nothing but cry. We couldn't show our tears, as that would have been seen as treason as well. We had to be very careful, but all of us were sobbing in our hearts. Think about it; her baby was just taken away from her. She was nursing her baby, and the baby was just taken away from her. She started crying as her milk began to come in again, and for the first time in my life I saw tears in the form of milk coming from a nursing mother's breasts. All of us were sobbing in our hearts.

Public executions in North Korea are a normal happening. In the rural areas, you usually have these public executions held in the market areas, because that's where most of the people are. They choose a place where a lot of people are. It's not just a form of punishment; it's a means of propaganda and it's a means of brainwashing the residents of North Korea.

I escaped from North Korea, and I went into China first. In my heart I realized the cruelty of North Korea when I escaped and looked back on the country I'd left. What I want to tell you today is that we need to make sure we reach the people of North Korea who are suffering under this situation of mind control and physical oppression in North Korea. We need outside help to do this.

When you look at North Korea, you can't think of it as just one entity. You have to separate it into the North Korean authorities and then the residents. I wish Canada would stand on the side of the North Korean residents. What can Canada do? I think the legislation of a North Korean human rights act would be the first step. I'm here today to testify and to urge you to please work on this North Korean human rights act.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Please begin, Mr. Lee.

[Kyung Bok Lee, President, Council for Human Rights in North Korea]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and honourable members of the subcommittee.

As you all know, in February of last year, the UN commission of inquiry report that was released effectively branded North Korea as a totally tyrannical state, worse than a Nazi state, as Mr. Jang stated a minute ago. At the same time they branded the so-called supreme leader, or supreme ruler I would say, as a criminal to be tried before the International Criminal Court. So it is no longer arguable that North Korea or the so-called DPRK, has lost its statehood or sovereignty as a state from a R2P perspective. The COI report says, “The international community must accept its responsibility to protect the people of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea from crimes against humanity, because the Government of the DPRK has manifestly failed to do so”.

Personally I would like to liken the human rights situation in North Korea to hostage-taking situations in which the people are being taken hostage by a criminal and therefore need to be protected and rescued.

I understand there are five R2P principles as they apply to the international community's obligation towards the offending states, which have been set out by Professor Irwin Cotler, the international authority on the R2P doctrine, who happens to be a member of this respectable subcommittee.

Thank you, Professor Cotler.

These five R2P principles are the responsibility to remember, the responsibility to prevent, the responsibility to protect, the responsibility to prosecute, and the responsibility to rebuild.

I would add one more if I might, which is the responsibility to rescue, in the case of the North Korean situation, because the situation there is an ongoing situation in which there is an urgent need for rescue more than anything else.

Now let me list some specific measures to be applied in the North Korean situation. Firstly, there are measures for the people being held hostage. As I said, we have to rescue the escapees from the yoke of the hostage-taker, those refugees in danger of repatriation back to North Korea from China and elsewhere.

We have to extend humanitarian assistance, in terms of the people's right to know, for those who are sealed off from the outside world. The tragedy is that many if not most North Koreans in North Korea do not realize that they are being held hostage. They believe they are being protected and cared for by their supreme ruler, the deified personality cult, because they are brainwashed, dehumanized, and enslaved from their birth.

The provision of outside information into North Korea will certainly serve as a strong and effective tool to deprogram the brainwashed people and de-deify the personality cult.

Secondly, for measures towards the region, the ruler, such as prosecuting him as a criminal at the International Criminal Court through the UN mechanism, you know what it is and what it takes.

Additionally, I would suggest to Parliament that it ban him, the supreme ruler, from entering Canada. Of course I don't expect him to apply for a visa to enter Canada, but the implication here, the significance, is that a travel ban by the Government of Canada, if it is known to the people of North Korea, will serve as a strong and effective tool in the de-deification of the personality cult, which says that he is actually a hero.

We want these measures to be included in a human rights in North Korea act of Canada that we are petitioning Parliament and the government to legislate. I'm sure that this is what Canada can do, and therefore should do, under the circumstances. Regime collapse is inevitable and is forthcoming, as Mr. Jang predicts. I believe that the human rights in North Korea act of Canada will give hope to the people of North Korea and will serve as the last straw to break the camel's back.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you to our two witnesses.

Colleagues, we have enough time for six-minute rounds of questions and answers.

Mr. Sweet, would you like to begin?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much for your testimony, Mr. Jang and Mr. Lee.

Mr. Jang, you were in a department that dealt with psychological and physical warfare. You mentioned that your job was to write poems so that South Koreans would idolize North Korea. What other practices were going on in that department with regard to your other colleagues?

[Cheolhyeon Jang]

In the UFD, we would write novels, songs, videos, and magazines. These are produced by the people in that department. It's not just poetry that comes out from that department. All kinds of different media come out of that department. The UFD that I was in is like a cultural liaison. From the 1970s up to the current date, they have been engaged in those kinds of activities that produce all forms of literature and art that is used for propaganda.

If you were to look at a publication called Uri Minjok Kkiri, which means “Us Together”, you would see that it's published by the UFD. Through this media outlet, North Korea provides op-eds and various articles, all of which are used as tools for psychological warfare against South Korea. There are various periodicals and also literature produced by this division. From the 1970s on, we used Japan as a channel, because there is a group of Koreans in Japan who are pro-North Korea. This group was used to channel these publications into South Korea.

In the past, movements for democratization in South Korea were actually anti-government movements in South Korea, so North Korea was trying to use these people who were engaged in democratization movements in the past as a channel for their psychological warfare against South Korea.

[Kyung Bok Lee]

Let me correct the answer. UFD, for whom he was working, was not dealing with physical control, physical dictatorship.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Jang, some of this activity must have affected you. Once you experienced freedom here in this country, how long did it take you to deal with the psychological effects of all of this programming that was going on in North Korea?

[Cheolhyeon Jang]

The department I worked for thought we needed to learn as much as we could about South Korea. To provide counter-intelligence, we needed to know the enemy to actually be able to fight against the enemy. So we went in and we read and we experienced everything, but when I actually came into South Korea, things were totally different from what I'd read in the publications. So for me too it was very difficult to adapt to this new society, and I had various trials and errors that I had to go through in order to reach where I am right now.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Have you had, either electronically or face to face, any kind of threats from any North Korean agents since you've escaped?

[Cheolhyeon Jang]

Right from the time I defected, when I escaped, North Korean authorities put out a search warrant for me. Since I defected I have received open physical threats through the North Korean official media outlets. I really can't count the threats, because there have been so many against me. Now when I'm in South Korea, I always receive 24-hour protection from the government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Mr. Marston, go ahead, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Lee and Mr. Jang, welcome.

Mr. Lee, we've worked with your Committee for Human Rights in North Korea for, I would say, nine or 10 years at this point. You referenced the UN commission's report, which you have with you here today. Ms. Sgro and I received copies last night at your forum. Do you have enough copies available to leave for the remainder of the committee? If not, could you table the report at the end of the committee so we could have the benefit of it?

You mentioned the responsibility to protect but you referred to it as R2P. For our audience watching, I just wanted to clarify that was “responsibility to protect” on the part of the United Nations. I have no real question for you, sir, at this point.

Mr. Jang, you spoke last night and today about the risk of regime collapse in North Korea. I'm not so sure that people really understand the significance of the risk to the population of North Korea. In 2007 I visited South Korea. I was in the DMZ and we saw up close North Korean army guards. They were emaciated. They were very small, clearly not well fed, and as most people know, a country will feed its army first. So it was an indicator of how terrible things were in North Korea for the population.

But if there were a regime collapse, I don't think the world would be prepared for it, sir. Are you bringing these warnings everywhere you travel?

[Cheolhyeon Jang]

I always try to speak about the atrocities of North Korea, the situation in North Korea, and I always argue that we need to prepare for that eventual collapse. If that happens, there will be total chaos that we cannot deal with. North Korea is different because its punishment system involves three generations of guilt by association. They have oppressed their people that way, and the anger against the regime will be immeasurable when it erupts.

We need to prepare for that eventual collapse, for that future. We need to take measures to prepare for that right now.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

When I was in South Korea, in the DMZ, there was a train station built on the border by the South Korean government, and it was to be connected to the north eventually, to allow transfers. That kind of highlights to me how unprepared South Korea actually is, if it is that optimistic that it would be that simple a change. I don't see the government, the regime, giving up power. They may lose it. As you say, the anger may take it away from them, so there's that huge gap in between.

You mentioned, Mr. Lee, the request of the Canadian government to have a human rights in North Korean act. Would you like to elaborate some more on that as to what you think should be in it, and what impact you think it would have? Do you really believe that would have a direct impact on the regime in North Korea?

[Kyung Bok Lee]

As mentioned, there are two ways the government survives. One is deification of the supreme leader and the other is physical control. Let's say, if we have a human rights in North Korea act here in Canada, first of all, whatever it contains and whatever the contents are, the implication here is that—oh, Canada has an act on human rights? When we're talking about human rights in the human rights act, we mean human rights abuses in North Korea. Ultimately, it originates because of the deification of the supreme leader and the system. Effectively, it's an insult to the regime, to the supreme leader, who is actually a hero. If this were known to the general public in North Korea, it would serve as a de-deification of the personality cult. I think, more than anything else, that's important, even if it is a symbolic one.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I have one quick question for Mr. Jang.

The leader of North Korea recently or today visited Russia. Have you any thoughts as to what that might suggest?

[Cheolhyeon Jang]

North Korea is trying to move away from just relying on the popularity of its government among its people, because if you look, basically, at North Korean markets, everything is dependent on China. They're trying to move away from China and this situation. At this point, China is not very favourable towards North Korea so North Korea has to move away from this reliance on China. Here we have China as a success story of reform in terms of the economy, but North Korea is not in a position to reform. This cultification has distorted all of the history of North Korea. They've idealized the Kims, so the minute they open their society and they open their economy, then everyone will see the truth about the Kims and this regime will collapse because the ideology that has been sustaining it so far will collapse. So in this position, they just can't open their doors, but China keeps on pressuring North Korea to open up.

In this situation, North Korea can only turn to Russia. They also need a starting point for this, right? Here we see that it's the 70th anniversary of the liberation of North Korea, so it's a celebration of how Russia came in, the Soviet Union came in, 70 years ago, to liberate North Korea from Japan. North Korea believes that this 70th anniversary celebration is more pro-Russian whereas any celebration of the end of the Korean War is pro-Chinese, because the Chinese came in and helped after the Korean War. Their focus on the 70th anniversary of liberation also tells us that they are leaning more towards Russia than towards China.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Ms. Grewal, please.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much for coming to speak with us today, Mr. Jang and Mr. Lee. I appreciate your willingness to come and speak to us on the human rights abuses in North Korea and how we as Canadians can help the North Korean people.

Mr. Jang, you are a defector, so how has your family been treated since you left the country? Also, what specific measures does North Korea employ to ensure that other high-level workers don't defect as well?

[Cheolhyeon Jang]

When I worked in the UFD in North Korea, I was treated very specially compared to the regular residents of North Korea. That is shown in the supplies that I received, the rationing.

In North Korea, people are divided into classes according to the type of rations that you get there. There are daily rations, rations every three days, weekly rations, and then monthly rations. Most of the people in North Korea receive monthly rations, but people in the central party receive rations daily, every three days, or weekly.

As an employee of the UFD, I, like most of my colleagues, basically received all the humanitarian aid that was sent to North Korea from South Korea. We were responsible for it. We got it first. The people in my department were supplied first with aid that came from South Korea. After I defected and went to South Korea, I worked for a while in a national institute, so in North Korea I worked on South Korea, and in South Korea I worked on North Korea's issues.

When it comes to defectors right now and what North Korea is doing, they're trying their best to prevent any other high-level people from defecting from the country. First of all, for the people who have the most power, they're not allowing them to travel abroad at all. At the OGD, which is the Organization and Guidance Department of North Korea, people who are in management there are not allowed to travel abroad at all. The people who are diplomats of course have to go abroad, and, for those people, what North Korea does is take their family members hostage. They keep them in the country. They don't let the family members follow. Only the diplomats themselves, and maybe just one of their family members, are allowed to go to a different country, so the rest of the family members are held hostage in the country.

Thank you.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

This question goes to both of you. Anyone can answer. As previous witnesses to this committee have mentioned, the North Korean regime uses food as a weapon. What end is massive famine supposed to serve for the regime? Also, how does North Korea have the capacity or the means to feed the general population?