Evidence of meeting #51 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offences.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Catherine Kane  Acting Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
John Sims  Deputy Minister, Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General's Office, Department of Justice

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I call the meeting to order.

This is meeting 51 of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Today is Wednesday, December 2, 2009. Because the minister is not here and we don't want to waste any time, we have a little bit of committee business that we could deal with.

You have before you the agenda for today. We are going to have Minister Nicholson here for most of the next two hours, but there was one item that I wanted to address concerning committee business.

Madam Clerk, do you have the list of the witnesses that we still have appearing?

You may recall that we had scheduled some RCMP witnesses. Unfortunately, we didn't get a chance to hear from them, so we've had to reschedule them.

I believe we have two more meetings left, on December 7 and December 9, and then we're done for this year. What we have scheduled for December 7 is witnesses Al Rosen by videoconference, the Canadian Bar Association, the Department of Finance, and Jean-Paul Brodeur. Then in the second hour on December 7 we have the RCMP—we missed having them the last two times—and we have the Attorney General of New Brunswick, by special request of Mr. Murphy.

That's on December 7. Then on December 9 we presently have scheduled Joey Davis and Janet Watson, Jenn Lofgren, Mike Miles, and Melanie Johannink. I understand they are all victims or family members of victims. Thereafter we would be proposing to go to clause-by-clause.

Is that a schedule you can live with?

Monsieur Lemay.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Chair, I am looking at the list of witnesses, and with respect, I would make the seventh a priority, the representatives from the RCMP. We must not make fun of them; we have to be serious. They will probably be here with other people. It will be hard to have that many people on the seventh. There are a lot of witnesses. I have questions for the RCMP, and I think it is important to have the RCMP representatives here with us. We told them earlier that we would give them an hour. There will be three of them here plus the Attorney General of New Brunswick. I don't know how we can arrange it, but if it can be done, I would like to hear them at 3:30 p.m. to be sure that they have time to give us the information they wanted to give us and so that there are no surprises in the meantime.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Monsieur Lemay, you should know that we had the RCMP scheduled on their own for one hour. At the very last minute, we heard that the Attorney General for New Brunswick was going to be in town, and a special request was made that we leave room for him.

Could I suggest to the committee that, based on Mr. Lemay's request, we flip those two panels; that we set up the RCMP and the AG for New Brunswick for the first hour, to ensure that they have the full hour, and then deal with the other witnesses in the second half of that meeting?

Would that be acceptable to you, Monsieur Lemay?

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Yes. For the 7th, that is fine.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right.

If there's no one who takes issue with that, we'll move forward on that basis.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Can I talk about the December 9 meeting?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Yes, you may.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Chair, I was wondering if we could postpone our clause-by-clause study of Bill C-52 until we come back on January 25. Is there an urgent need for us to proceed with the clause-by-clause study on December 9? That would mean that if we wanted to propose amendments to the bill, we would have to table them tomorrow. We cannot work miracles. It becomes very difficult. Is there an urgent need? Can we put the study of to January 25?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Monsieur Lemay, what we're proposing to do is start clause-by-clause on that day. The only people we'll have will be the families of victims represented. So I'm suggesting that we leave clause-by-clause as is. If we don't have time to finish it, that's fine, we can put it off.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Yes.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I believe I asked some time ago at this committee that those proposing to have amendments here for clause-by-clause do so right away. I still haven't had a response from anyone at the table. So I have to assume that there aren't any amendments coming forward.

Now, committee members have the right to present amendments right to the last minute. I understand that. But I think out of courtesy to our clerks, and to some of the other adjunct staff who are required to be here during clause-by-clause, we should do our best to have amendments presented to the committee and at least delivered to the clerk well in advance.

I'm not chiding you for that, Monsieur Lemay. I know you do still have some time to get ready for that. What I don't want to do is allow these bills to be bogged down.

What we've done is allow the second half of December 9 to be available for clause-by-clause. If we don't get through it, that's fine. We can always put it off until the new year.

Mr. Comartin, did you have a point to make?

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I think the problem with that strategy, Mr. Chair, is that we need to hear from the witnesses before we finalize our thinking on what amendments we want. I do intend to move some amendments. I don't think this bill is strong enough in terms of protecting victims of white collar crime. So I do intend to move at least a series of amendments in one area, and perhaps more. But I'm going to need to hear from the witnesses, on December 7 in particular.

I don't really have a problem with leaving clause-by-clause there, but I suppose I'm just advising the committee that I'm not likely to have.... I'll basically only have Tuesday of next week to get them done and translated after we hear the witnesses on Monday. So I'll put the committee on notice of that.

The other point, with regard to the Department of Finance, is that I assume this is people coming from FINTRAC specifically. That was the request I had made.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Yes, I believe that was the case.

The request was put to FINTRAC. FINTRAC suggested other officials within the Department of Finance.

So the request has been made to FINTRAC.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Do we know who the people are?

Quite frankly, Mr. Chair, the only people I've been able to identify who seem to have some information on the incidence of white collar crime--particularly the incidence of white collar crime involving large amounts of money as opposed to smaller amounts--would be them. I don't know where the Department of Finance would have that. Now they may, but I just haven't identified them as a possible source.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Apparently FINTRAC has identified specific individuals in the department. But what I'll do is have the clerk provide you with the names of the individuals and you're free to contact them to find out exactly what kind of expertise they'll be bringing to the table.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I'd like the names of the people we talked to at FINTRAC as well.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right. I've taken note of that.

Hearing no further comments, we'll then move ahead with the schedule as we've agreed.

Minister Nicholson, it's good to have you back. You're here for the first hour on Bill C-42, which is An Act to amend the Criminal Code (Ending Conditional Sentences for Property and Other Serious Crimes Act).

I understand you have with you the acting director general and senior general counsel, Catherine Kane, as well as Matthias Villetorte, who is counsel with the criminal law policy branch.

I welcome all three of you.

Minister, you know the drill. You have ten minutes and then we'll open the floor to questions.

Monsieur Lemay.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Excuse me, Mr. Minister.

I would like some information. Since we have the minister for two hours, until around 5:30 p.m., and we have to study the Supplementary Estimates, should we not give the Minister — this is just a suggestion — the opportunity to talk about Bill C-42 as well as the Supplementary Estimates so that we do not have to go back. We could ask questions about the Supplementary Estimates or Bill C-42. I don't know if that would be acceptable to the Committee members, but it might save us some time.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

No. First of all, the agenda spells out what he'll be addressing, in order. The other thing is that he has brought counsel on Bill C-42 with him, whereas counsel on the supplementary estimates will be here later in the meeting.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Okay.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Minister, you have the floor.

3:45 p.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to be with you once again, this time on Bill C-42, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (Ending Conditional Sentences for Property and Other Serious Crimes Act). This bill will contribute to people's confidence in the criminal justice system by proposing additional restrictions to the use of conditional sentences of imprisonment.

I know this committee is quite familiar with the issue, given the amendments that took place in 2007. To understand why we're pursuing other reforms, I'd like to say this. Conditional sentences became a sentencing option over 13 years ago with the proclamation in September 1996 of the sentencing reform bill. Conditional sentences were to provide an intermediate sentencing option between probation and incarceration to permit less serious offenders to remain in the community under strict conditions: their sentence was less than two years; the court was satisfied that allowing the offender to serve the sentence of imprisonment in the community would not endanger the safety of the community; and the offence was not punishable by a mandatory term of imprisonment.

In 2000, the Supreme Court of Canada held in Regina v. Proulx that a sentencing court must first find that a sentence of imprisonment of less than two years is appropriate, before considering whether the sentence can be served in the community under a conditional sentence order. In other words, a court must be of the opinion that a probation order and/or a fine would not adequately address the seriousness of the offence; a penitentiary term would not be necessary to do so; and a sentence of less than two years would be appropriate. Once this decision is made, a court would then determine whether the sentence of imprisonment of less than two years may be served in the community, bearing in mind the other prerequisites in section 742.

A number of observers, including some of my provincial and territorial colleagues, became increasingly concerned with the wide array of offences that received conditional sentences of imprisonment. By the time our government assumed power in 2006, it had become clear to us that further limits to the availability of conditional sentences were needed. We responded to those concerns when we tabled Bill C-9, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (conditional sentence of imprisonment) on May 4, 2006. It was referred to this committee a month later, in June. Bill C-9, in its original form, proposed to eliminate conditional sentences for offences prosecuted by indictment and punishable by a sentence of 10 years or more.

It was, and still is, the opinion of this government that offences prosecuted by indictment and punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of 10, 14 years, or life are serious offences that should not result in a conditional sentence order. This is so, even if the court ultimately finds that a sentence of less than two years is proportionate to the circumstances of the offence. Bill C-9, as originally drafted, would have caught serious crime, such as weapon offences, offences committed against children, and serious property crimes. However, Bill C-9 was amended so it would only capture terrorism offences, organized crime offences, and serious personal injury offences as defined in section 752 of the Criminal Code--those that are punishable by a maximum of 10 years or more and prosecuted by indictment. This was similar to the approach taken in Bill C-70 that the previous government had tabled in the fall of 2005, but died on the order paper.

The amendments to Bill C-9 created some strange results. First, the amendment to Bill C-9 created a situation whereby offences punishable by a maximum of 14 years' imprisonment or life are not all considered to be serious crimes. I shouldn't have to remind the members of this committee that these are the highest maximum available in the code.

Second, as a result of the amendments to Bill C-9, offences contained in the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act are not excluded for eligibility for a conditional sentence unless they are committed as part of a criminal organization. Consequently, the production, importation, and trafficking of a schedule 1 drug, such as heroin, would not be caught and would still be eligible for a conditional sentence of imprisonment. As members of the committee know, our government has proposed mandatory penalties for serious drug offences in Bill C-15. I therefore expect that when that legislation is enacted, as I hope it soon will be, these offences will be ineligible for a conditional sentence.

Third, the use of the term “serious personal injury”, as defined for dangerous and long-term offenders, was appropriated to serve as a limit to the availability of conditional sentences as a result of the amendments to Bill C-9. Up until that bill's coming into force on December 1, 2007, sentencing courts had only to interpret serious personal injury offence for the purpose of determining whether the threshold for a dangerous or long-term offender application had been met, because that term only applied to dangerous and long-term offenders. Since Bill C-9 came into force, courts have wrestled with the interpretation of serious personal injury offences in the context of conditional sentences.

A concern with the definition of serious personal injury offences is that serious property crimes such as fraud could still be eligible for a conditional sentence. We're all aware of the recent examples of the devastating impact of fraudulent conduct. Victims who have lost their life savings have called for strengthened sentences for these types of crime. It is difficult to disagree with their concerns, especially considering the fact that fraud, which is punishable by a maximum sentence of 14 years, would still be eligible for a conditional sentence, despite the reforms enacted in Bill C-9.

It's clear to me, and I suggest to many Canadians, that greater clarity and consistency are needed to eliminate the availability of conditional sentences for serious violent and serious property crimes. For these reasons, Bill C-42 proposes to remove the reference to serious personal injury offences in section 742.1 and make all offences that are punishable by 14 years or life ineligible for a conditional sentence. This would make the offence of fraud and many other crimes ineligible for a conditional sentence.

Bill C-42 would also clearly make offences that are prosecuted by indictment and punishable by 10 years and result in bodily harm, involve the import-export, trafficking, or production of drugs, or involve the use of a weapon ineligible for a conditional sentence. While these elements of the legislation will significantly limit the ambit of the conditional sentencing regime, the addition of these categories would not exclude all serious offences prosecuted by indictment and punishable by a maximum of 10 years. Therefore, Bill C-42 lists specific offences prosecuted by indictment and punishable by a maximum sentence of 10 years that would be ineligible for a conditional sentence. These include prison breach, luring a child, criminal harassment, sexual assault, kidnapping, trafficking in persons, abduction, theft over $5,000, breaking and entering a place other than a dwelling house, being unlawfully in a dwelling house, and arson for fraudulent purposes. In addition, once Bill C-26 comes into force, conditional sentences will no longer be available for the proposed offence of auto theft. The bill is presently before the Senate.

Mr. Chairman, conditional sentences are an appropriate sentencing tool in many cases, but their use does need to be restricted when it comes to serious property and serious violent offences. A more prudent use of conditional sentence orders should strengthen confidence in the sanction and the administration of justice.

I'd like to conclude by saying, Mr. Chairman, that passage of Bill C-42 is an important step towards more just sentences that will protect our communities, our families, and respect our sense of justice. The use of conditional sentences for less serious offences and less serious offenders, as was intended when they were first created, will improve public confidence in criminal justice.

I hope this will receive quick consideration by this committee and we'll get this matter back into the House soon.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you, Minister.

We'll move now to questions

Mr. Murphy and Mr. LeBlanc, you're going to split your first question.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Yes, just very briefly.

Thank you for coming, Minister.

I haven't been involved with Bill C-9, but I do have a concern about fraud—I'll call it white collar crime—crimes that result in economic loss to persons, often elderly people, people without other resources. What we hear in that bill quite often is the lack of effective restitution instruments. One of the arguments, for Bill C-9 anyway, that seemed compelling is that certain persons convicted in the fraud area would be better off after a while, after denunciation was served, I guess, in getting out there and having means to make restitution to their victims. I guess in a general sense we've been hearing from provinces that they're going to take their own steps with respect to restitutionary efforts. What is your perspective on meeting the dual needs of punishment and making sure victims of fraud get restitution?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

First of all, with respect to serious fraud, as you know, the maximum penalty, the maximum sentence as it exists now, quite apart from the bill we've introduced on white collar crime, is 14 years. I think people in this country have a real problem with the idea that these individuals are eligible to be sent home after their conviction. I think they have a problem with that, and I agree with those Canadians who have a problem with that.

You can say, for the most part, that they're not going to get two years less a day, and in the majority of the cases I'm pleased to say they don't get off very easily. But on the idea that you could be eligible to go home after you've committed a serious white collar crime, I think a lot of people have problems with that. So that is taken care of in this bill. This is one of the reasons I'm urging its quick passage.

In addition, with the passage of our white collar crime bill, it would become ineligible in any case, quite frankly, because with mandatory prison terms in the other bill, again it would be ineligible. Either way, we have to get rid of house arrest or conditional sentencing for these individuals.

Now, with respect to restitution, you quite correctly pointed out that there is some very good work being done at the provincial level with respect to assistance, as much as property-related issues, for the most part, are within provincial jurisdiction, so of course they have been taking steps in that direction. But you were here when I testified--I believe you were--on the white collar crime bill, and as I pointed out in that particular bill, there are specific provisions that relate directly to people making a claim and, as I say, making the judicial system more user-friendly for people who find themselves as victims of fraud.

So there is a role to play, of course, for the federal government, and I'm pleased that this particular legislation takes direct aim at assisting victims and making the system a little bit better for them. But again, you're quite correct to say that provincial governments have made substantial progress in this area as well.