Evidence of meeting #37 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was apply.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Altimas  Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec
Catherine Kane  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I call the meeting to order.

This is meeting number 37 of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Today is Tuesday, November 23, 2010. You have before you the agenda for today. We're continuing our review of Bill S-6, an act to amend the Criminal Code and another act, dealing with the faint hope clause.

Before we move to Bill S-6, your steering committee met earlier today, and a copy of the report is in front of you. Is anyone prepared to move adoption of that steering committee report?

Moved by Mr. Dechert.

(Motion agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

Moving on to Bill S-6, to assist us in our review we have one witness with us in the first hour, Mr. Patrick Altimas, director general of the Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec.

Welcome. I think you've been told you have ten minutes to present, and then we'll open the floor to questions from our members. Please proceed.

3:30 p.m.

Patrick Altimas Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can guarantee you that this will take less than 10 minutes. I don't intend to overwhelm you with statistics, which you most certainly already have, and I will keep my comments brief.

First of all, on behalf of the Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec and its 60 member community organizations, I would like to thank you for your invitation to share our views on Bill S-6.

Established in 1962, our association now represents some 58 community organizations that work closely with the adult offender community in practically every region of Quebec, as well as two umbrella organizations. The community network that I represent is made up of 800 skilled employees and more than 500 volunteers actively involved in crime prevention and social rehabilitation of offenders.

Our organizations are recognized and accredited based on rigorous standards by the different user services. From an economic standpoint, their activities represent almost $50 million a year. Year after year, this network serves a total of approximately 35,000 individuals subject to judicial control, some of whom were sentenced to life in prison.

If you were to ask me to make one brief comment on Bill S-6, which will eliminate the faint hope clause, it could be summarized with the following question: why? Indeed, in terms of our experience with this clause since it was introduced in 1976, compared to the goals set at the time, it is clear that it has been a success. So, why change something if it's working? As the saying goes: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

As I said earlier, I do not intend to go over all these statistics that have already been provided to this Committee. I will simply say that they clearly show there has been no abuse, considering that, according to the figures that I have seen, only 180 cases have come before a judge and jury out of a possible 1,067, which represents 17%. Of that number, 33 were rejected, or barely 3% of total eligible cases. Finally, the vast majority of offenders released following judicial review continue to live as law-abiding citizens. And, even more importantly, there have been no cases of recidivism involving murder. So, why do this?

One of the interesting features that will be removed if judicial review is no longer available is the opportunity for community representatives—in other words, jury members—to comment on the potential rehabilitation of a member of that community. Naturally, the issue of victims' rights and concern for victims is a point often raised by the government in its own arguments and rationale for this. Yet it seems that the government is more interested in fuelling the clash between victims and offenders than it is in appeasing the two sides in order for healing to occur, if I can put it that way.

As regards the victims and their families needing and having the right to services and assistance throughout the legal process, everyone agrees with that, including our association. However, we should be questioning exactly how the elimination of the faint hope clause will in fact help victims or their families. How does keeping people in jail beyond a certain period, which has been considered acceptable since 1976, contribute in any way to appeasement of the two sides—offenders and victims and their families—and will it result in healing?

The experience of the ASRSQ's member community organizations, in terms of their experience with offenders affected by the faint hope clause, reflects in all respects the duly noted success associated with this clause.

The ASRSQ therefore sees no valid reason to eliminate it, and recommends that the Committee propose that Bill S-6 be withdrawn.

Thank you for listening and I am now available to take your questions.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

We'll move to questions. Mr. Kania, you have seven minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I doubt that I'll need seven minutes, but I will start with this question.

Sir, have you had occasion to speak to prison guards or their representatives, in terms of what they believe the benefits of this bill may be? Do you have any information on that?

3:35 p.m.

Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

Patrick Altimas

Not recently. I haven't spoken to any prison guards recently, no.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

That's fine, thank you.

On page 1 of your presentation, the first sentence ends with.... I'm going to read this and I'll ask you to comment about it. You state:

In fact, the AQAAD is of the opinion that the bill is unfortunately part of an election strategy that makes false promises to enhance public safety.

Obviously you're probably referring to the Conservative Party, and I'm wondering if you could provide some examples and speak about that a little bit.

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

Patrick Altimas

I'm sorry, I did not submit a brief, so I don't know what text you're referring to.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

I have this.... Is it not yours? A brief submitted.... I thought this was your document.

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

Patrick Altimas

The document I brought in today was not translated, so I don't know which document you're referring to.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

It says “Brief submitted...”

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

No, it's the Association québécoise des avocats et avocates de la défense.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Oh, sorry.

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

Patrick Altimas

That is why I was a bit confused.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

No, that's fine. I'm not on this committee. I'm referring to a document that was provided to me that I read, so I'm looking at this brief and it made that comment.

Do you have any comment on that?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

Patrick Altimas

I'm sorry, could you repeat it?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Sure.

In fact, the AQAAD is of the opinion that the bill is unfortunately part of an election strategy that makes false promises to enhance public safety.

Do you have any comment on that?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

Patrick Altimas

Not really. I don't have any comments on that because I think it's a question of opinion. I don't deal with opinions; I deal in facts.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

So in terms of your facts.... And once again, I'm not on this committee, so I'm not offering an opinion, I only want to know what your opinion is. You think this is a bad bill, obviously, because you've asked for it to be withdrawn. Can you speak to why you think this bill was introduced?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

Patrick Altimas

To my recollection, when it was introduced in 1976 it was introduced in the context of the government deciding to withdraw the death penalty from the books. In the discussions that occurred in the House of Commons in those days, there was a compromise that with the withdrawal of the death penalty, there was the inclusion of the 25-year minimum, which was considered in some cases to be maybe too much. In other words, there may be some cases where a person could be considered eligible before 25 years without representing a risk. It was also a question of offering these people who are sentenced for 25 years with a certain hope that they could come out, and that hope would help in maintaining--how would you say.... I'm better in French on this. Sorry.

The idea was that this would give them hope and might result in better conduct during those years. It was to act as an incentive, if you will, to good behaviour.

If that hope is removed, that could create an even more dangerous situation in terms of inmate behaviour inside the institution.

Furthermore, the concept of rehabilitation and the idea that a person can change are very much a part of our Criminal Code and our laws.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

That's why I asked you about prison guards, wondering if you had any such discussions. You mentioned about conduct within the prisons, and I'm wondering if you have an opinion about how these changes would affect the security of prison guards and other persons who work within such institutions.

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

Patrick Altimas

Well, I would say it's very difficult to predict with certainty. However, one could suspect that if someone is without hope for 25 years and therefore has less incentive to maintain acceptable behaviour, the changes could increase the level of violence in the institutions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Can you identify the existing problem that you think the government has attempted to solve? What's the problem out there that resulted in their bringing forward this legislation at this point in time?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

Patrick Altimas

I don't see a problem per se. My colleague from the John Howard Society remarked, if you will allow me to quote what he said to this committee, that “What we appear to have here is a proposed solution in search of a problem”. That's basically our position also.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

You are aware of the fact that the current legislation was amended by a previous Liberal government to make it a little harder for persons to apply, that someone has to go in front of a judge and get approval and there are then juries and they have to be unanimous. You are aware of all of that system, right?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec