Absolutely.
Evidence of meeting #31 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was believe.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #31 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was believe.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:55 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Legislation and Law Reform, Canadian Bar Association
It goes to those sections that are composed of volunteer lawyers from across the country who belong to those sections that would be of interest in this particular matter.
1 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Legislation and Law Reform, Canadian Bar Association
It has gone to the media, communications, and entertainment section; the equality section; the criminal law section; and of course the constitution and human rights law section. Not only that, it goes to the elected officials in the CBA—the president and all of the executive officers.
1 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Legislation and Law Reform, Canadian Bar Association
The submission is approved by a wide variety of members from across the country.
1 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Legislation and Law Reform, Canadian Bar Association
I can't give you a number, but all of them.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
It doesn't go to the membership at large, though.
1 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Legislation and Law Reform, Canadian Bar Association
No, but it goes to—
1 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
That was my question. That's the question to which you could have answered no.
1 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Legislation and Law Reform, Canadian Bar Association
It wouldn't be of interest to the pension and benefits group, for example.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
It would sure be interesting to me as a CBA member.
1 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Legislation and Law Reform, Canadian Bar Association
I don't think it would be if you were there purely because you were interested in practising pensions.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
I think you're wrong. As a past CBA member I was interested in this when the CBA came forward, made submissions to Parliament, and didn't ask our opinions on them. I stopped being a CBA member because you did not ask my opinion on your submissions and I didn't agree with a lot of them.
I apologize for sounding this way, but if you're going to come forward and say you represent CBA members, maybe you should survey the group at large, not just people who are particularly interested in section 13.
My next question is in relation to the Criminal Code. You mentioned that it wasn't adequate. I practised criminal law for a number of years, and I'm wondering if the only argument you rely upon is to suggest that the burden of proof is too high.
1 p.m.
Member, Canadian Bar Association
There are a number of reasons why it's so inadequate, and I've touched on a number of them. The burden of proof is very high. It only deals with specific circumstances. You also have to prove intent. As I recall, in the Ahenakew case that was exactly where there was a significant problem.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
I thought you said it was an evidentiary burden.
1 p.m.
Member, Canadian Bar Association
It was the evidentiary burden beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to incite hate.
There are other problems. In subsection 13(1) it has to undermine public peace, so to speak. There are problems in subsection 13(2), where you have to get the Attorney General's consent. As Ms. Mahoney has already pointed out, it's not as comprehensive as what you find under the Human Rights Act. It deals significantly with racial issues and religion, but it doesn't deal with other aspects of discrimination the way the Human Rights Act does. So there are a number of areas where it falls short.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Do you know how, in 1977, this section 13 originally came in—what the purpose of it was?
1 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
In 1977 apparently it came in as a result of mass telephone communications being sent out in recorded hate messages to people in Toronto. Apparently they felt there was nothing to deal with continual communications of recorded telephone messages. It has been expanded since then.
My argument, based upon my history as a criminal lawyer, is if you think that the Criminal Code is not adequate and the burden is not adequate—I would argue with you on that, because I think the burden is necessary to protect those people who are innocent—we should look at it, and the CBA should come forward and ask that we amend the Criminal Code.
That's my time, Mr. Toews. The nice thing about lawyers is we can have lots of arguments, but thank you very much for coming forward.
1 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie
Thank you, Mr. Jean. The time is up.
I'd like to thank the witnesses for appearing today.
Our meeting is adjourned.