Evidence of meeting #42 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mélanie Sarroino  Quebec, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres
Lisa Steacy  British Columbia, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres
Rachel Phillips  Executive Director, PEERS Victoria Resource Society
Natasha Potvin  Member, Board of Directors, Peers Victoria Resource Society
Kate Quinn  Executive Director, Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation
Glendyne Gerrard  Director, Defend Dignity, The Christian and Missionary Alliance
Marina Giacomin  Executive Director, Servants Anonymous Society of Calgary

1:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Servants Anonymous Society of Calgary

Marina Giacomin

Thank you.

It's unfortunate you can't see me, because I look exceptionally gorgeous today.

I'd like to start by acknowledging the Treaty 7 nations on whose land I'm speaking to you from.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, for this opportunity to contribute to your review of Bill C-36, the protection of communities and exploited persons act.

My name is Marina Giacomin, and I am the executive director of Servants Anonymous Society Calgary. I have been a social worker for over 25 years, with a primary focus on issues related to women and children, including violence, poverty, and homelessness.

I am also a survivor of sexual violence and exploitation, which I experienced beginning at a very young age and until my early twenties, including a year when I was 16 years old and frequented the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver, British Columbia. I have been free from that experience for 25 years now.

I would like to both personally and on behalf of SAS, Servants Anonymous Society Calgary—and, most importantly, the hundreds of women and girls we have served—thank the Canadian government for Bill C-36 and your recognition of the evidence of prostitution as inherently violent and primarily an issue of violence against women. We support the abolishment of prostitution in Canada and urge you to support this bill.

I will offer you the exit perspective today, and start by describing for you SAS Calgary and our experience and expertise.

Servants Anonymous Society Calgary has operated for the past 25 years providing a voluntary, comprehensive service for girls and women age 16 and older, with or without children, who are seeking an exit from prostitution; sexual exploitation, including other sex industry experiences; and healing from the related violence and trauma.

We have service data on over 700 girls and women: 100% have experienced violence; approximately 40% identify as aboriginal; and 75% are 24 years and older, with 90% of them, however, having been introduced into the sex trade as teenagers, predominantly around the age of 14.

We believe we are the most comprehensive service for this population in Canada, and have provided care to women and children from across the country. We work closely with both local law enforcement, including Calgary Police Service's vice and organized crime unit, and for the past many years have provided the mandatory training regarding sensitivity and compassionate law enforcement approaches to prostituted people for all new recruits of the Calgary Police Service. We also work in collaboration with our provincial and federal correctional facilities, with the RCMP, and on occasion with Canada Border Services.

Servants Anonymous Society Calgary provides a SAFE house program, which allows for an immediate exit from prostitution for girls and women. The SAFE program is professionally staffed 24/7; provides access to medical care, detoxification, and addiction services if required; and trauma recovery work also begins here.

The SAFE program is a 30- to 45-day stabilization program. A recent review of our outcome statistics for over 100 women accessing SAFE shows that women staying in the SAFE program for one week experience a 40% increase in successfully exiting to safe and stable environments. Women staying in SAFE for a minimum of two weeks experience a 50% increase in their success, and women remaining a minimum of four weeks in SAFE experience a 90% success rate in exiting to safe and stable environments.

Following SAFE, the SAS program offers transitional supportive housing in five houses located throughout the city, where women live communally with a live-in volunteer or supportive roommate. We offer permanent independent supportive housing. We own a number of fully self-contained apartments with a live-in volunteer unit on site to ensure safety and to provide any additional support the girls and women may require. In addition, we offer permanent affordable housing in the community through a formal partnership with our local housing authority.

Along with housing, women participate in an extensive daily life skills classroom. Our entire curriculum has been written by alumni and women with lived experience of prostitution and sexual exploitation. All of the women are assigned a key worker or a counsellor who is a professional social worker or addictions counsellor for personal case management and support. We employ a number of alumni who have gone on to complete their education in the social services. We offer an on-site professional child-minding service and a child development, parenting skills, attachment bonding therapy, and in-home support program for women with children.

SAS has a very high rate of children being returned from child welfare or child protective services to their mothers who are in our program, and a very high rate of pregnant women being allowed to keep their children upon delivery. Indeed, the catalyst for many of the women we have met who choose to exit prostitution have come to us because of either an episode of extreme violence, where they directly feared for their life, or the discovery that they were pregnant.

The final phase of the Servants Anonymous Society Calgary program is a six-month employment education support service. We offer follow-care support and outreach for any of our past participants to help them access continuing services in the community or return to SAS if required. We also help them develop résumé, job search, and interview skills; we offer through our social enterprise, on-site and in-community paid work experience programs, and scholarships for continuing education. In fact, a number of our alumnae have gone on to university or other post-secondary education to advance their education and improve their long-term employability. Women who complete the entire SAS program experience an 88% success rate in remaining free of prostitution, sexual exploitation, and are in safe, stable housing for a minimum of two years afterwards.

An independent social return on investment evaluation of our services was commissioned by the Government of Alberta, Ministry of Justice and Solicitor General. It was conducted from 2009 to 2012 and showed that our services result in a social return on investment of $8.57 for every $1.00 spent by government. These are reflected as savings to the taxpayer in the decreased costs of homelessness; law enforcement responses; inappropriate use of ambulance, emergency medical services, and hospital stays; incarceration; child welfare interventions; and homicide investigations. Clearly, comprehensive services supporting women to exit prostitution are of great benefit, both to the women and to the community.

SAS Calgary applauds the Government of Canada for recognizing the need for such services and for including financial provisions to support survivors of prostitution to exit and create safer lives. We support Bill C-36 and the focus on the criminalization and fining of pimps, traffickers, and purchasers or “johns”. We have, all too often, seen the long-term effects of violence and trauma associated with the sex trade, and this legislation is a first and necessary step in deterring those who prey on the vulnerable people in our society. We believe this legislation will require some small adjustments; however, for the first time in Canadian history, women exploited by the sex industry are being viewed with dignity, as people worthy of being given support to exit violent and exploitive situations, rather than as public nuisances.

Since Bill C-36 was unveiled, we have been hearing very loudly from the pro-prostitution lobby. We are told that some women choose prostitution as a viable career option, and while this might be true for an extremely small percentage of people, the media has reported extensively on this angle. It is not our intent to debate that point of view today. What we want to ensure is that the voices of experience from survivors of exploitation and prostitution do not get lost in a pro-prostitution debate.

What is vitally important for this committee and for Canadians to remember is that the majority percentage of women and girls are exploited, are forced or coerced into prostitution, and are trapped by violence and threats. Legalization should not be an option. This is not a job.

Evidence shows that there are large numbers of women and girls who would leave prostitution if they had the means to do so. And we know this because we operate one of the most comprehensive exit programs in the country and sometimes we have to turn women, girls, and children away because we don't have the space. In fact, as of this week, we have a waiting list of 14 women, meaning an average of 1 to 2 months before they can get in. Those days could mean the difference between life and death for someone's daughter, their mother, or their sister.

It is also clearly evidenced in the research that focusing the criminalization on sex purchasers and pimps or traffickers helps vulnerable women to exit, and begins to support the public's understanding of prostitution as an issue of gender inequity and violence against women.

We would like to offer one recommendation for an amendment, particularly subsection 213 (1.1) regarding communication offences in relation to the expectation of the presence of children or persons under the age of 18. While SAS supports the legislation's intention to prevent the spread of social norms that treat women as sexual objects and to keep impressionable children somewhat safe from the social harms resulting from prostitution, we believe that prostitutes themselves must be held immune to this provision, understanding that they themselves are victims. We recommend that the bill be amended here to reflect this.

We would suggest that the rigorous enforcement of Bill C-36 and heavy fines and punishments put in place to target johns who attempt to purchase or procure a prostitute will offer a strong deterrent in such locations and support the objectives of Bill C-36's preamble, without criminalizing prostitutes themselves.

We believe this will fortify the legislation against further legal or human rights challenges. It is not a human right to have sex, or to have access to someone else's body for such, but we do each have the right to safety and protection. We know that this will support more vulnerable people in asking for help from police and in seeking to exit from prostitution.

Our experience, from having helped hundreds of women and girls, is that whether a woman was forced or coerced into prostitution as a young girl, or whether she made a decision based on very limited or unreasonable options, violence and trauma are always present factors. And once in prostitution, many girls and women become trapped. As one woman from our program explains, "The only way out of being pimped is either death or being sick with HIV, because if you are HIV positive the bikers, [as well as gangs, and violent “johns”] will kill you themselves". Violence, is violence, is violence. There is no difference inside or outside.

For those who would objectify women and commodify their bodies, Bill C-36 sets out real deterrents. The additions to the Criminal Code will give law enforcement and prosecutors the tools they need to protect women and combat organized crime. We should all take pride in this made-in-Canada solution.

Merci.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much, thank you for your presentation.

Now we go to the questions and answers round. Just for committee members, since Ms. Giacomin can't see you, could you make sure that if you ask her a question you identify who you are and which party you're from, just so she knows in advance.

The first round is with the New Democratic Party, and it's Madame Boivin.

2 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of you for joining us today. You are the second-last group of witnesses on Bill C-36. The Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights is clearly tasked with studying this bill. The committee's approach is often of a very legal nature, and that obviously may appear to be out of touch with your respective realities.

As a lawyer, I have represented shelters for abused women. I can tell you that the situation is not clear-cut, and the shelters don't always have an easy job to do. So we raise our hat high to all those who work in settings where women are exploited, abused and treated with a blatant lack of respect. Many of us work day and night to fight this scourge. We do have a legal job to do here, and so I will focus on that.

We understand the work you have to do. I am somewhat biased in favour of CALACS. I admire the work you do. I may be a bit more familiar with those organizations than other groups here today. I want to thank those groups again for sharing their experiences with us. I also want to thank people from outside Canada. I appreciate other countries' experience, as that can help broaden our horizons. However, our legislative framework may sometimes differ from that of another country. That is the legislative framework we have to work within.

The Outaouais CALACS sent me its brief, which is similar to what you said, Ms. Sarroino.

Can you tell us a bit more about the work you do on a daily basis to fight against sexual assaults? We can see that sexual abuse is often related to conjugal violence. You have unfortunately identified too many cases.

Can you give us an overview of the work you do in your community? Can you explain to us in more depth why section 213 is so harmful if we start from the premise that women are victims of prostitution? In my opinion, this provision is almost a dismissal of the bill. We cannot say one thing while doing the opposite.

Can you tell us more about the nature of the work your group does in various regions? Can you also tell us what the problem is with this bill?

Some people feel this a way to hide. I think section 213 is the source of the problem in this bill. The same goes for the $20 million. I would like to hear a bit more from you on this.

2 p.m.

Quebec, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres

Mélanie Sarroino

Thank you, Ms. Boivin.

As I said earlier, certain Quebec CALACS are not members of the group but do the same kind of work. I think there is a total of 35 CALACS in Quebec, and 26 of them are members of our group. Their work is split into three main areas of intervention. The first is direct assistance, in which case the organizations meet with women who have been sexually abused and provide them with feminist support. This approach basically consists in helping women take charge of their life, so that they can put what they experienced behind them.

I would also like to point out that most of the women who consult us do so for abuse that happened, on average, 13 years prior. We know that it takes them a very long time to work up the courage to report what happened and talk about the abuse they were subjected to.

2 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Are you talking about situations involving prostitution or conjugal violence?

2 p.m.

Quebec, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres

Mélanie Sarroino

Neither. There is a lot of incest.

With child luring, we are seeing more and more young victims of assault, as well as more and more women who are assaulted after meeting someone on the Internet.

There are some cases related to conjugal violence. There are also some related to prostitution, depending on the region of Quebec.

Our second aspect, which is very important, is prevention and awareness raising. As I mentioned, we reach out to 25,000 to 28,000 high school students a year. I am not sure what the situation in Canada is, but we know that, in Quebec, sexual education courses are no longer available in school, and this really hurts today's young people. We are trying to deal with this lack of sexual education, mainly when it comes to abuse, romantic relationships, and respect or consent in relationships. Those are the topics we address as part of prevention and awareness raising.

We are also involved in advocacy, which is basically what I am doing right now. We talk a lot about all the issues related to sexual violence against women. Our group believes that prostitution is the ultimate act of sexual violence against women. So those are the main ways in which CALACS are involved.

I am very happy to hear about section 213. I have been listening to testimony for days. Regardless of whether we are in favour of sex workers, and whether or not we are religious, both sides agree that this section should be removed from the bill.

The provision is inconsistent with the bill's preamble and its objective, which is to completely decriminalize women because, as we believe, they are victims of their own exploitation. That's very clear. So consistency is lacking. We agree in saying that this will criminalize the most vulnerable women—those who are struggling with substance abuse and who are, disproportionately so, aboriginal women in several regions of Canada.

It is important to be very careful not to further victimize those women, who are already very vulnerable.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

And its corollary is the $20 million.

2:05 p.m.

Quebec, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres

Mélanie Sarroino

Exactly.

I could not mention this earlier, since I was told I did not have much time left.

The $20 million is clearly insufficient to provide assistance, especially over a 5-year period. It would be dangerous to implement legislation that aims to eliminate the demand and prostitution without providing services, expunging criminal records, tackling the issues that are the root cause of women becoming prostitutes. We have to fight poverty, racism and discrimination. We need a comprehensive and holistic approach that addresses all those aspects.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

You will understand my concern when I say that failing to do so will result in our having to start all over again. We will once more be told that we are putting people's lives in danger. I am a little concerned by that.

2:05 p.m.

Quebec, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres

Mélanie Sarroino

We do not agree.

Our point of view has to do with safety in the event of decriminalization. The New Zealand model is constantly being brought up, but New Zealand is on the other side of the globe and an island. We live in a nation that has the biggest shared border with another country.

What will happen if prostitution is decriminalized in Canada? Who will come here to buy the services of our women? The demand will skyrocket. That will result in a higher offer, and more women will end up in unsafe situations and become victims of violence, as everyone agrees that prostitution is a dangerous profession.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

I would also say that we have to be careful about ready-made models imported from elsewhere, such as the New Zealand model. Despite what people may think, it is one thing to decide to implement labour legislation, but another to determine how to do it.

We are working in a federal system, and we have to deal with federal, provincial and territorial jurisdictions. The path forward has not yet been well-defined. As you rightfully pointed out, we have to address the root cause of the problem before trying to deal with issues further down the line. That would not resolve anything.

2:05 p.m.

Quebec, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres

Mélanie Sarroino

The legislation is a good step forward, and we support it.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Do you support it only on the condition that the two amendments you mentioned be made?

2:05 p.m.

Quebec, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is Mrs. Smith from the Conservative Party.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you so much.

Hello, Kate, how are you? I didn't know you were going to be in Glasgow. My goodness, I'm so glad you are there and thank you for joining us. Thank you to all of the panellists for joining us.

I'm going to be asking questions of three or four different people as quickly as I can, as the time is very short.

Kate, we've been working in Edmonton for a long time and you're talking about provincial and municipal monitoring and evaluation. You are very supportive of Bill C-36. You've come across with some recommendations.

One thing you talked about is to evaluate how things are going after the bill, hopefully, is passed. Can you expand on that further?

2:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation

Kate Quinn

Yes. Thank you very much, Mrs. Smith.

Again, in our experience, we start with a vision and then have to implement it.

Bill C-36 sets out a path. Yet we know, because of all the complexities we've heard about, that some things will go awry here or there.

Our community group observed, in 1995, that section 213 was not working and that it was criminalizing the party without power. No changes were possible until recently when Bill C-36 was brought forward.

We really think that it's important that we review every five years.

I'm going to give one specific example from our provincial legislation; the vehicle seizure legislation. When it was created it was written with the best knowledge at the time.

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Kate, I don't think we have time to go through all that.

2:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation

Kate Quinn

I was just going to say that the men figured out that the law had a problem, because it said only that if the man were in the car could the vehicle be seized. So men started parking their cars four blocks away.

We will always need to be attentive to how the industry will try to manipulate the situation.

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Adjust themselves.

2:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

You're saying this evaluation is an extremely good point.

It's so nice to see you again.

Glendyne, it's wonderful that you're there and to see all the great work that you're doing.

You talked about our needing to protect the most vulnerable. You talked about the preamble.

I'm so proud of that preamble. For the first time, it's recognizing victims and the kinds of deplorable situations they're in. I love defending dignity because it's such a good way to describe....

Could you talk a little bit more about how important the preamble is and how it's changing, or will change, the paradigm here in Canada?

2:10 p.m.

Director, Defend Dignity, The Christian and Missionary Alliance

Glendyne Gerrard

Yes, absolutely. I think the preamble really gave me clarity as to know where the government was heading with this bill.

When it talks about recognizing that prostitution is inherently violent, it talks about the need to curtail demand. These are all key parts in the bill. It references the inherent value and dignity of every person.

This is quite a shift from where our constitutional legislation was when it treated the whole issue as an issue of nuisance to a community. We've made this huge shift to now recognizing that it is violence against women, mostly women.

I can't speak well enough of the preamble and how it sets the tone for the rest of the bill.

July 10th, 2014 / 2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

That's really a first in Canada.

Marina, you are beautiful. Servants Anonymous is an amazing organization. Thank you for all that you're doing to give care to women and children. It's so good to hear your voice again.

Marina, you talked about comprehensive services and the fact that Bill C-36 is a very necessary first step and a first in Canada. You talked about the fact that we should be proud that Canadians and members of Parliament are doing something concrete now: first, targeting the johns and the pimps and making sure they are held accountable for the violence against women and children; and second, the acknowledgement of the plight of the victims, what it's really like. It's not Canada's oldest profession; it's Canada's oldest profession.

Marina, could you talk a little bit about at least three of the services, which I know you do so well at Servants Anonymous, that could be part of this $20 million? Talk a little bit, as Diane Redsky did yesterday, about the partnerships. The federal government can't do it all. There has to be partnerships between the province, municipality, and federal government. Could you address some of these issues, Marina?

2:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Servants Anonymous Society of Calgary

Marina Giacomin

Sure. Thanks for your question, Ms. Smith.

I would say that three of the key services that probably need to be offered are the opportunity for immediate exit, long-term sustainable housing, and life-skills programs. When I say life skills, I'm not talking about general life skills. All of our life-skills curricula have been written by women who worked as prostitutes or were involved in sexual exploitation, so when we're talking about budgeting, we're actually looking at it. First, we have a conversation about what is our actual relationship with money. We come at it from a very psycho-educational perspective, and then a skills-based perspective next. So the life skills are extremely important, relationships with others.

It's particularly important for women who are going to go back to school or find a job sometimes have struggled with their relationships. Interestingly, we find in particular that they can struggle with their relationships with other women, mostly because for the majority of their lives, they've been groomed and trained in how to relate very well with men and have not had as much opportunity to relate well to other women. So we really pride ourselves on establishing a sisterhood sort of model, a mutual model, where everything we do is based on mutuality. We don't believe for a second that we are experts in anybody else's lives. They are the experts in their lives, and they tell us what services they need to help heal or to move on, or whatever next step in their life they want to take.

Thirdly, I would say it's extremely important for there to be opportunities for advanced education or employment training for women so they do have alternatives. We know that poverty is a huge underlying contributing factor to prostitution and exploitation. When we can equip women with the skills and the financial resources to do something about that, they become extremely successful and get to actually follow paths and achieve goals that they really have.

We do have our partnership with the police services. We receive funding from various levels of government, from a lot of private donors. Our provincial government helps us out a little bit with some money through civil forfeiture, which is related to crime prevention. That is an opportunity, I think, to leverage the federal dollars as well. Also, our partnership with the municipal government, the City of Calgary, provides us with some opportunity to provide the attachment bonding at work with moms and their children, if they've been separated for a long time. When their children are returned to them, that can create all sorts of new issues and challenges, so our municipal government helps us out that way. We've developed excellent relationships, really, with all of the political parties in Alberta because we're non-partisan, obviously.

So, yes, I think there are a lot of opportunities with this bill, and that's why I love Canada. I'm such a proud Canadian, and I love how innovative Canadians have been around issues like homelessness. Now in Calgary we're looking at ending poverty. As a country, we're talking about prostitution and what works best for women. I really mean it when I say that we need to be proud of this bill and that we can make a real difference for Canadian girls and women.