Evidence of meeting #46 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victim.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pamela Arnott  Director and Senior Counsel, Policy Centre for Victim Issues, Department of Justice
Carole Morency  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Kathy Thompson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Community Safety and Countering Crime Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Daryl Churney  Director, Corrections Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Don Head  Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Richard Clair  Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I am going to call to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. This is meeting number 46. It is televised. The orders of the day are pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, June 20, 2014, Bill C-32, An Act to enact the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights and to amend certain Acts.

Appearing before us is the Honourable Peter MacKay, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

Before we go to the minister, everyone has in front of them the budget from our review of the prostitution bill that was before us in the summer. We had allocated $39,900. We are slightly over that. We have one more bill, I think, that just came in. We have approval for $39,900 and we are asking for approval for another $5,000 just to make sure we cover everything.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

I'll move the motion.

(Motion agreed to)

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us. We're here to talk about Bill C-32.

The floor is yours for 10 minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Central Nova Nova Scotia

Conservative

Peter MacKay ConservativeMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Thank you very much, Chair.

Colleagues,

I am pleased to appear before this committee today to talk about Bill C-32, which enacts the Canadian victims bill of rights and will entrench victims' rights in federal legislation.

I'm proud to say that this bill, the victims bill of rights act, has been a key priority for our government since 2006. I appreciate the support that has been received for this bill thus far at second reading from numerous groups of stakeholders, victims advocates, including members present, since the bill was tabled last April.

This bill reflects broad consultations and input received from over 500 stakeholders in person or online bringing forward reforms discussed at every federal-provincial-territorial forum, and best practices from international, provincial, and territorial legislation, and programs. There has been a tremendous amount of input. At its core, the victims bill of rights act complements existing measures for victims of crime while respecting constitutional divisions of power in the administration of justice and being very careful to avoid causing undue delay in the criminal justice process. That was an important consideration, I can assure you, which was raised often during our consultations.

I strongly believe that this bill strikes the appropriate balance between the rights of victims and the rights of the accused. Importantly, it extends rights for victims at every stage of the criminal justice process, from the beginning of the investigation to the consideration of the release of the offender on warrant expiry. It affords victims a true sense of inclusion, of respect and consideration, throughout the process. The proposed primacy clause stipulates that all federal legislation would be required, to the extent possible, to be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the Canadian victims bill of rights. Where there is a conflict between a federal law and the bill of rights, the provisions of this bill would prevail, with certain notable exceptions. Victims will benefit from general rules that will be entrenched, will be spelled out, will be cast in federal law for the first time.

We know that victims of crime often seek information about the criminal justice system and the role they play, about their case, about the decisions made by the justice professionals throughout the process. This bill creates a right to information. It brings amendments to the Criminal Code and Corrections and Conditional Release Act to provide more information to victims on things such as bail and prohibition orders, plea arrangements, victim-offender mediation, and parole board decisions. This proposal builds on existing laws, policies, and best practices.

We know that victims are looking for greater protection in their interactions with the criminal justice system. Bill C-32 will build on the many existing measures in federal law to better serve victims.

Specifically, amendments to the statutory scheme governing the disclosure of third party records in sexual assaults proceedings, in the testimonial aid provisions, would require courts to consider the particular security needs of victims who are witnesses. Similarly, proposed amendments to the Corrections and Conditional Release Act would allow the parole board to impose reasonable and necessary conditions on an offender serving a long-term supervision order, which would include a non-contact or geographical restriction if the victim presented to the board a statement about safety.

Studies on child victims have shown that publishing identifying information can exacerbate trauma, complicate recovery, and discourage children from reporting crimes to the police or impact on their cooperation with authorities. That's why the proposals relating to publication bans involving children and using pseudonyms are the logical next step in enhancing victim protection in our system.

The amendment on spousal immunity has sparked some interest. The proposed amendments would ensure that if a spouse has relevant evidence to give, the crown will not be able to call the spouse to testify. Bill C-32 would not, however, change the privilege regarding marital communication. A married person testifying at a trial may still refuse to disclose a communication made to them in the confidence of the spouse during their marriage.

We know that victims want to participate more in the criminal justice system. The right to participation set out in this bill recognizes that major concern.

Specifically, the measure to clarify and broaden the scope of the victim impact statement provisions in the Criminal Code would clarify that victims would be permitted to speak in their victim impact statement to the emotional, physical, and financial impacts of the offence. It could also include their taking a photograph with them, or using testimonial aids to present their statement to the court. These are compassionate measures that we think will aid in the ability of a person to give their evidence.

We know that victims are also concerned about the financial impact of a crime, which often places them in serious hardship. The amendments proposed would provide victims with the right to have courts consider restitution orders against the offender, as well as the right to enforce orders as civil judgments which could or would possibly avoid lengthy civil proceedings for the victim of crime.

We know as well, Mr. Chair, that victims were seeking enforceable and practical measures to address the harm and prevent similar harm to others.

I must pause for a moment to pay tribute to those very courageous individuals who took part in this process and helped with the presentation of this bill by sharing their experiences in the criminal justice system. For many it was a very painful experience to go back over what had happened to them, but I know that they did so with tremendous compassion in their hearts, in the hopes of preventing victimization in the future.

During the consultations, many victims advised that they did not want to see police or prosecutors impeded in the exercise of their authority, or punished. They simply wanted organizations to address problems up front and spare other victims and their families some of the unfortunate experiences they had undergone.

The proposed remedies approach would provide remedial action to victims more quickly than any external adjudicative process, and make federal departments and agencies proactive in addressing victims' needs. This remedial scheme provides a review mechanism with statutory powers and the operational expertise necessary to assess potential breaches of victims' rights, in the context of each department's or agency's operations, requiring that victims use existing oversight bodies with authority to oversee the operations of a department or agency. This is a cost-effective and timely approach, and it's consistent with the input that we received during consultations.

Many victims' rights advocates in Canada clearly supported creating enforceable rights for victims. In her initial report on Bill C-32, the federal ombudsman for victims of crime wrote that this significant step forward will help acknowledge and enshrine victims' role in the criminal justice system. That is very positive.

After talking about what this bill will do, allow me for a moment to touch on some of the elements that the bill will not address.

The bill doesn't propose to make victims a party to the criminal proceeding or give standing, nor does it give victims the right to receive legal aid automatically. These are areas we spent a great deal of time considering and reviewing. We believe we received significant feedback during the consultations on these specific suggestions. I might say many were concerned that it could lead to unintended negative consequences for victims, unnecessarily burden the justice system, and lead to significant costs and delays in criminal proceedings. For those reasons we have not proceeded in that direction.

The bill also does not give rise to a cause of action or claim in damages. Criminal justice officials noted during the consultations that imposing additional civil liability on officials responsible for implementing this bill would impact on the operations, cost, and functioning of the justice system. As similar clauses appear in provincial and territorial victims' rights legislation, other federal statutes, and related statutes in other countries, we are confident with the approach we've taken on this issue.

This bill will also not provide victims with the right to review or veto a crown decision to prosecute. Again, we've received tremendous input on this subject. Prosecutorial discretion is a constitutionally protected principle in our criminal justice system, and we are protecting it under clause 20 of this bill.

However, we have included amendments to the Criminal Code that would require the court to inquire if the crown had informed the victim of any plea arrangements for serious personal injuries offences, which we believe strikes the right balance and the right approach. Our focus here is giving victims consultation and a voice at a critical point in the criminal justice process, without creating undue cost or delay, or in any way undermining what we feel must be balance in a fair trial.

We will continue to work with our provincial and territorial partners as they implement this legislative measure in their respective jurisdictions.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair and colleagues, it is my hope we will continue to work together at the federal level to ensure this bill restores victims to their rightful place at the heart of our criminal justice system.

I thank you in advance for the work you are undertaking in looking at this bill in detail. I thank you for your diligence on a number of legislative agenda items you have before you, and I look forward to your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you for coming, Minister.

We are going to go to questions now. You are joined by two officials from the Department of Justice: Madame Morency, director general and senior general counsel for the criminal law policy section, and Madame Arnott, director and senior counsel, policy centre for victims issues.

The floor now goes to Madame Boivin, for five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, minister, for sharing your vision of Bill C-32 on the Canadian victims bill of rights.

I wanted to say right off the bat that I am happy that the process was expedited, insofar as the opposition was able to do so, so that the bill was referred to the committee for study.

In my opinion, there is no role more important than looking after the people we represent. Among the people we represent in our respective ridings are victims. There are all kinds of victims, and they are defined in different ways. I am glad that we can spend an unlimited number of meetings on this issue.

I am glad to hear what you have to say, but we are going to want to hear mainly from victims, the people who look after victims and those who deal with them in the justice system. We are finally going to be able to focus on that. Too often, these people feel that the justice system is not on their side and that they are forgotten. This is a good way to bring the focus back to them. However, it is clear that we have to do so properly, and not just on paper.

You talked about consultations, minister. Our partners, the provinces and territories, are the ones that are frequently going to have to enforce the victims bill of rights once it is passed.

That is why I would like to know whether you consulted the provinces and, if so, how.

Did they see the bill? Did they validate it? Were you able to discuss it?

Could you tell us how all this will be implemented?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Of course. Thank you, Ms. Boivin.

We had the opportunity to talk directly with some provincial justice ministers at the meeting in Whitehorse last fall. We did so in every province or territory where we held consultations. In Prince Edward Island, for example, the Minister of Justice took part in the meeting.

It was very much an attempt to bring as many people into that process as possible, not only our provincial and territorial partners, but many of the organizations that are involved in the front-line delivery of services for victims, of course lawyers, prosecutors, even some judges.

I should mention as well there was an online consultation, one of the first we've undertaken, and it led to a larger and even more inclusive consultation which took place in response in the Bedford case.

I would suggest to you that this was an effort to hear as many perspectives as possible, but most particularly and with emphasis, as you suggested, on victims themselves and hearing their experiences.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Talking about the victims, the ombudsman for victims is doing exceptional work sometimes with limited means, and she didn't pay me to say that.

I am curious to know what role the ombudsman for victims will play under the victims bill of rights.

Will you expand her role? Has that been decided?

What role do you plan to give her in enforcing the act once it is passed?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

You are right that the ombudsman is an exceptional person who has a great deal of experience in the justice system. She clearly plays an extraordinary role in enforcing victims' rights.

However, it is important to understand that other systems can play a role. For example, the RCMP has a complaint mechanism. The intent behind this bill is not to duplicate effort, but to respect the provinces' and territories' role and jurisdictions.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, Madam Boivin and Minister, for those questions and answers.

The next questioner is Mr. Goguen, from the Conservative Party.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today. It is always a pleasure to have you with us. I would also like to thank the departmental staff.

Thank you for all the hard work you have done to try to finally give victims a voice in the justice system. We know that victims are often thrust into a system they do not know or understand very well. The voice and the rights you are giving them are welcomed by the people in the system.

Could you explain how this law will really change victims' lives in Canada? I think you will agree that it is quite a change in approach.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Absolutely. Thank you for the question, and thank you for your work on this initiative and all justice initiatives.

In fact, this is a real paradigm shift. It is a change in how we see choices across the justice systems in Canada.

I think it's fair to say that by entrenching for the first time in federal law these rights for victims you will see a culture shift. It is our hope to bring about a greater sense of accountability throughout the system. It is our hope to bring about a greater recognition of what it is the various players within our justice system must do to include victims and reach out to them. They must ensure that the victims are in fact aware of their rights and aware of the obligation that exists, whether it's from the time of the investigation—the very first contact is most often with the police, as Mr. Wilks can attest to—to that very first court appearance, to officials within the justice system and throughout the process, from sentencing on through the process of corrections and release.

Entrenching these rights very much gives victims a greater sense of where they belong, what their ability is to ensure that their rights and their role are being respected and have remedy, have a place to go when things go wrong, which sadly they do.

It will take time to take hold. This effort, I believe, has been met with tremendous enthusiasm. It has been met with some trepidation on the part of some within the system. But I think as it is understood and as it is put in place, it will bring about what I believe will be a very positive change for victims in Canada.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you, Minister.

I note your remarks that Bill C-32 actually reflects much the input of the stakeholders that were consulted. I note that there was extensive consultation and that this outreach was very important in coming to the final provisions that have been proposed.

I also noted your remarks with regard to the effort made to respect the constitutional jurisdiction of the provinces. I wonder if you could elaborate on the extent of the consultations which were undertaken.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

It was the first undertaking I made after being sworn in as Minister of Justice. I was advised by my department that I should pack my bags, because I was going to every province and territory to meet with provincial representatives and many different advocacy organizations on behalf of victims, victims themselves, criminal justice professionals, territorial officials, and non-governmental organizations. I should point out that we met with first nations communities and representatives of Métis and Inuit organizations.

We heard some heart-wrenching stories, Mr. Goguen. I think you'll recall in New Brunswick that we heard from individuals—and I know that many of you have had similar experiences—who were feeling, and often used the term, re-victimized as a result of what had occurred.

This bill attempts to address many different elements, but many included lack of information or somebody had not given them proper information or not advised them of a decision that was being taken that very much impacted on them. They were not given information, in some cases, about the release of an offender. In one instance I recall vividly a woman telling us that while in line at the grocery store she met the person who had sexually assaulted her, and this brought back such horrendous emotions, fears, and anxieties.

It's my sincere hope, and I think you will all share this, that we will to the greatest extent possible, through the enforcement of these rights, prevent that re-victimization or sense that the system has somehow failed them. There is no perfect filter through which we can prevent every failing, but I do believe this bill will bring about a tremendous improvement, as I said earlier.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you for those questions and those answers.

Our next questioner is Madam Bennett, from the Liberal Party of Canada.

Welcome, by the way.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Thank you.

If the minister has any say on the makeup of this committee, we would hope that maybe the minister would think there should be some women representing the Conservatives, or maybe some indigenous representation, but I digress.

On this bill our ongoing concern is that any bill that enshrines rights needs to make sure that there's funding to ensure that the rights are well known and able to be exercised by all Canadians. We also want to make sure that the mechanisms in victims services are consistent across the provinces and territories, and particularly with first nations.

I would like to know what funding will come with this bill to make sure that people across Canada know about it, and that the mechanisms are in place to deliver the intent of the bill.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Thank you very much, Ms. Bennett.

The makeup of this committee, as you know, is not done at the direction of the Minister of Justice, although I do know that female members have attended.

With respect to the funding, in addition to the $120 million in the victims fund that was introduced by our government in 2006, specific funds have been earmarked to enhance victims services at the provincial and territorial levels.

With respect to funding attached to this bill, there will be funding. It was set out in last year's budget, confirming that more resources will be made available, especially as you point out, for the online and broader communications of the implementation, because rights, as we all know, are only as good as a person's understanding and ability to exercise them.

It's my hope that in addition to that effort to communicate about this new bill, the coverage of this committee hearing and the inclusion of many victims and victims groups and advocates who will appear before this committee will also spread the word about the improvements within the criminal justice system. More details will be forthcoming on the funding attached specifically to this bill, and for both the communications and the enhancement of victims' rights and victims services across the country.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

As you know, Minister, this bill has been hailed as a significant component of the action plan for missing and murdered aboriginal women. From coast to coast to coast, we've heard from the families that they haven't had the support or the ability to navigate the system. Quite rightfully, many of them have had a distrust of authority stemming from colonization to racism, and other barriers. They don't feel comfortable in the system in complaining, so I think they require some special care.

I was concerned that the AFN felt there hadn't been sufficient consultation with indigenous stakeholders around this bill. Other than the online comments, I was wondering if you could let us know what consultations have occurred. Maybe you could table with this committee the list of consultations with indigenous stakeholders, including what you heard and how you think this bill deals with the concerns articulated in those consultations.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Well, I wouldn't take issue with what you said about the often very difficult experience that those in the first nations community have experienced over the years in the criminal justice system, and their disproportionate representation in terms of those who are incarcerated, those who are affected by violence.

To come back to your question as to who I met with specifically, in Yellowknife we met with the Dene First Nation representative, Native Women's Association of the Northwest Territories, Qulliit Nunavut Status of Women Council, Qimaavik Women's Shelter, Pauktuutit Inuit Women of Canada, Qikiqtani Inuit Association, Métis Nation of Ontario, Gignoo Transition House, and the Mi'kmaq Confederacy of Prince Edward Island.

This was during the summer round tables last year. You mentioned the online consultation. There was also input that we received.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Would you table the specific concerns that were raised by those particular participants and then how you think they're addressed?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Sure, we can provide a synopsis of the feedback that we received.

As far as the investment that is, I suppose, providing some linkage between the victims bill of rights and what we're attempting to do for aboriginal women and girls and violence against them, there is a program of $25 million over the next five years, aimed specifically at programming both on and off reserve to assist in deferring the violence and obviously the suffering that has been experienced in the community, an action plan to address family violence.

I know that as a member of that committee you're aware of those efforts.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

There is some concern that the Gladue principle may well be weakened by this bill.

Have you had consultations about that, and could you let us know whether this again will be in conflict or contradict the Gladue principle?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

We have contemplated that, and as you know, the Supreme Court has stated that courts are required to consider the imposition of restorative justice.

I had some experience previously as a prosecutor, in the early days of restorative justice and things such as sentencing circles, so I believe in the principle. I believe that they do work in some instances. However, there is also the ongoing need to balance those considerations when there is serious violent crime and sexual violence against individuals.

All of that is going to be considered by the judge. This is where the final determination will be made and how to calibrate the application of the Gladue principle with other considerations, such as the victim's background and the victim's experience to that point, which in many cases led them to find themselves in court as a victim.

We have to bring those sentencing principles in line when it comes to the final determination, but ultimately, I have great confidence in our judiciary to make good decisions in balancing out those existing precedents with what we believe is contained in the victims bill.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Mr. Dechert.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Minister, thank you for being here today.

I was really pleased to see the introduction of this victims bill of rights. I've had the opportunity to speak to victims of crime in my city of Mississauga and across Canada. Many times I heard that they suffered the assault, the harm; they made a statement to the police and heard nothing further until they were called to trial one day and treated like just another witness. They didn't know what was happening in the investigation, in the prosecution, yet the harm was done to them and to their family.

You mentioned in your opening statement that the victims bill of rights contains a right to information. That seems, from what I've heard.... I want to also say that I had the opportunity to serve on the Special Committee on Violence Against Indigenous Women, as did Ms. Bennett. We heard from some of those victims and the families of those victims, and this was a key concern of theirs. They hadn't received information both about the investigation into what happened to their loved one and about the prosecution. When someone was charged, they got very little information about the whole prosecutorial process.

I wonder if you could tell us a little more about what the right to information means in this bill and how it would make a difference in the lives of victims.